The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman • Hacker News Board

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#211

Post by 6510 » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 4:57 AM UTC

krick wrote: post #199

cowvin wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most interesting (but inconclusive) points they found was how Hans' evaluated strength dropped after they introduced the 15 minute broadcast delay.

Except, introducing the 15 minute broadcast delay just happens to coincide with Magnus scandalous withdrawal, Hans being especially carefully searched and being stared at by everyone (that is, if we trust how it was evaluated over a couple of games in the first place). So, again, even though some statement from chess.com was expected, this one probably does more harm than good. Heavy implications, winking and chuckli…

I didn't look at the chess.com thing since the historic progress is eclipsed by a streak of 5 important games where he simply scores 100%. Everything else is irrelevant. GM's usually have zero games at that level. Dropping to his usual level after that doesn't average it out to human level. lol

Someone should organize that running joke: naked chess tournament.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#212

Post by scott_w » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 4:57 AM UTC

maegul wrote: post #5

So page 9 from the last paragraph is interesting. Chess.com basically indicate that apart from Hans, a number of highly rated players (including higher than Hans) have been caught and admitted to cheating. I haven't gone over the report thoroughly, but it's clearly focused on Hans's conduct and not so much on the state of play regarding online cheating, which is, even by Magnus's statement, the chief focus of all of…

Swimming has training tools that would obviously disqualify you in competition, for one example.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#213

Post by Dalewyn » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 5:00 AM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #182

Dalewyn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing though: How do you know a player cheated? Because you caught him. So what about all the cheaters who are never caught? You can't say they're cheaters. Therefore, if a player cheats but is never caught, he isn't a cheater. If a player isn't a cheater, whatever he did is legitimate and it isn't a problem. Therefore: Cheating is only a problem if you're caught. Put another way, the rules only tell you t…

If all you care about is the prize money, then there are easier ways to rob people, e.g. at gunpoint on their way out of the competition venue. The Rules say "If Person X does Y, then Person X gets Z". You want to rationalize interrupting that process to take Z for yourself. Y could be "their job" and Z could be "their salary". I suppose, in your terms, highway robbery is also a "high risk, high return course of acti…

>you claim "most people finish dead last in life"

I made no such claim. I stated that, quote: "... Honest people finish dead last in the race known as life."

>if everyone cheated, it would be a complete breakdown of society.

Human society has always been, always is, and always will be rife with cheaters of varying degrees and impact. Some will be caught, most won't be.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#214

Post by Dalewyn » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 5:06 AM UTC

irjustin wrote: post #208

Dalewyn wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commented on this already in another post, but I'll reiterate here: How do you know a player is a cheater? If you can't prove a player cheated, that is if you never catch the cheater, then whatever the player did is legitimate. It doesn't matter if the player in fact cheated and got away with it, it's all legitimate if he wasn't caught. The rules do not and cannot police the act of cheating itself, only the results…

> How do you know a player is a cheater? > it's all legitimate if he wasn't caught. > The rules do not and cannot police the act of cheating itself These statements alone, well sure.... everything is legitimate if it's not caught. That's by definition. Are you arguing really hard for the definition of word legitimate? I'm actually quite confused about what it is that you're arguing here from these statements.

I'm arguing that it is in one's interest to not hold naive ideals about the world, about reality. Reality is a dirty, ruthless place. If you don't conduct yourself being aware that other people are going to take advantage of you, or even cheat on you, then you will end up getting screwed because you cannot defend against attacks you aren't aware of nor expect.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#215

Post by jimmySixDOF » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 5:09 AM UTC

patmcc wrote: post #174

lmm wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport. Especially in combination with the possibility that there's plenty more cheating that they're not catching/detecting. Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). This is a major scandal that s…

>>Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). I think it's the other way, chess is about as easy to cheat as it gets. With chess you can have a perfectly usable cheating system that isn't on the same computer at all - computer A is clean, and is where you actually play on chess.com, computer B is where you ent…

It's not just AI and e-sports either

Fishermen Team Accused of Cheating by Stuffing Fish With Weights https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2022/10/01/fishermen-team-a...

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#216

Post by chafporte » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 5:11 AM UTC

ddalex wrote: post #157

mherdeg wrote: post #73

Is Niemann's win in the 4 September 2022 in-person game really so improbable? Is it unlikely enough that it offers convincing evidence that we live in a simulation? (i.e. he acted based on information he received from outside our reality)

Not a chess specialist, but he pulled out a couple of unusually good moves on a very uncommon line of play without thinking too much about it, almost looking casually. His excuse was "it just happens that I studied this line last night ". This doesn't happen.

It was a line that Magnus has already played once or twice in tournament. Hans wondered how Magnus could surprise him. So Hans studied various lines rarely played by Magnus including this one. This was very clear in Hans interview.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#217

Post by notfed » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 5:14 AM UTC

htrqball wrote: post #34

erdevs wrote: post #27

This report provides a detailed background of Hans' potential cheating, and detailed breakdowns of certain aspects of chess.com's cheat-detection methodology, including previously unknown (or little known) methods such as window focus change event monitoring and post-focus-change move analysis.[1] The report also reveals Niemann's engine move correlations alongside over two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted…

Quoted post unavailable.

> He seemed a bit on the spectrum and oversharing, literally hyperventilating and not talking in coherent sentences.

Yeah, not really. He's 19 and is a non-native English speaker. He understands that he's under siege and has to show some vulnerability to gain trust in listeners. IMO, the way he spoke was completely in accordance with all of this, while also remaining coherent.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#218

Post by rrobukef » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 5:15 AM UTC

6510 wrote: post #211

krick wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, introducing the 15 minute broadcast delay just happens to coincide with Magnus scandalous withdrawal, Hans being especially carefully searched and being stared at by everyone (that is, if we trust how it was evaluated over a couple of games in the first place). So, again, even though some statement from chess.com was expected, this one probably does more harm than good. Heavy implications, winking and chuckli…

I didn't look at the chess.com thing since the historic progress is eclipsed by a streak of 5 important games where he simply scores 100%. Everything else is irrelevant. GM's usually have zero games at that level. Dropping to his usual level after that doesn't average it out to human level. lol Someone should organize that running joke: naked chess tournament.

A Find-the-cheater tournament. One player is asked to cheat without consequences, the others are aware there is one cheater.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#219

Post by fragmede » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 5:19 AM UTC

rrobukef wrote: post #218

6510 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't look at the chess.com thing since the historic progress is eclipsed by a streak of 5 important games where he simply scores 100%. Everything else is irrelevant. GM's usually have zero games at that level. Dropping to his usual level after that doesn't average it out to human level. lol Someone should organize that running joke: naked chess tournament.

A Find-the-cheater tournament. One player is asked to cheat without consequences, the others are aware there is one cheater.

It would be interesting to see what happens if you tell everyone there’s one cheater but there really isn’t one.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#220

Post by irjustin » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 5:20 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #214

irjustin wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know a player is a cheater? > it's all legitimate if he wasn't caught. > The rules do not and cannot police the act of cheating itself These statements alone, well sure.... everything is legitimate if it's not caught. That's by definition. Are you arguing really hard for the definition of word legitimate? I'm actually quite confused about what it is that you're arguing here from these statements.

I'm arguing that it is in one's interest to not hold naive ideals about the world, about reality. Reality is a dirty, ruthless place. If you don't conduct yourself being aware that other people are going to take advantage of you, or even cheat on you, then you will end up getting screwed because you cannot defend against attacks you aren't aware of nor expect.

I agree with you on this.

Going back to my comment I have issue with:

> cheating is completely legitimate.

Which is not what you're saying here.

[Edit]

If you made your statement that "the world is a dirty place" I think most would agree with you. The point almost every reply is taking issue with is when you say "cheating is legitimate".

The replies, including my own, are saying "cheating is not acceptable". By originally saying "cheating is legitimate" you are saying "cheating is acceptable", but in your follow up arguments it's "cheating moves that are not caught are considered legitimate", which is the definition of legitimate and thusly there's no substance.