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The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

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Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#171

Post by emmelaich »

paxys wrote: post #7
maegul wrote: post #5

So page 9 from the last paragraph is interesting. Chess.com basically indicate that apart from Hans, a number of highly rated players (including higher than Hans) have been caught and admitted to cheating. I haven't gone over the report thoroughly, but it's clearly focused on Hans's conduct and not so much on the state of play regarding online cheating, which is, even by Magnus's statement, the chief focus of all of…

Yup that part stood out to me as well. There are dozens of "Anonymous Confessed GM"s on the cheating list, most of them with a rating much higher than Neimann's. And this doesn't even mention the players who are flagged by their algorithm but haven't admitted their guilt. Given the very high ELO range of the offenders (2600-2700), it's clear that a lot of the most popular names in chess are involved. Why not name all…

Is it not obvious that you start with the most anomalous ELO to success comparisons?

Therefore, Neimann.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#172

Post by [deleted] »

camjohnson26 wrote: post #106
nwienert wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that he only cheated twice overall I don’t think he claimed “twice overall” as in “twice exactly”, to be fair, just within a period of time.

He specifically said he never cheated for prize money or while streaming and couldn’t imagine doing so, both statements were false.

[deleted]

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#173

Post by karpierz »

maegul wrote: post #100
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only partly. In DOTA for example one of the more common cheats is scripting that provides the player with reaction time more like a pro in triggering items and abilities.

That makes lots of sense for quick real time games. But getting back to my point about how integral computer engines are in chess for training/preparation ... a script to enhance reaction times seems much more like doping in sports where it probably doesn't improve the player's intrinsic abilities only their performance.

Poker would also break if you could just use algorithms to tell you how much to bet and when to fold.

I suppose any strategic, turn-based game breaks down as soon as you have a world class engine for it.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#174

Post by patmcc »

lmm wrote: post #166
maegul wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [1]Tangentially, this induces an obvious concern about cheat and cheat-detection arms races. A clever cheater might scrutinize this report and refine their cheating plan. For example, they might recognize the need to use a second device (such as a phone) to cheat. They might use the data corpus presented in this report to establish limits on how often they use chess engine moves per game, and they might manage thei…

> I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport. Especially in combination with the possibility that there's plenty more cheating that they're not catching/detecting. Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). This is a major scandal that s…

>>Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess).

I think it's the other way, chess is about as easy to cheat as it gets. With chess you can have a perfectly usable cheating system that isn't on the same computer at all - computer A is clean, and is where you actually play on chess.com, computer B is where you enter the moves into the chess engine. That doesn't work for something like CS:GO or League of Legends or whatever, cheating or botting needs to be in real-time and on the same computer.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#175

Post by boole1854 »

gpm wrote: post #148
noncoml wrote: post #38

“Our investigation has revealed that while there has been some noteworthy online play that has caught our attention as suspicious since August 2020, we are unaware of any evidence that Hans has engaged in online cheating since then.” So he was re-banned for absolutely no reason. He kept his side of the deal, i.e. not cheat again on chess.com platform. Chess.com didn’t keep theirs.

[Edit: This paragraph is wrong] As I see it he was largely banned for lying about his past cheating... which makes a lot of sense given that one of the conditions they impose for reinstating the account is telling the truth about the cheating (at least privately). Either way, chess.com kept their side of the deal, their side of the deal was "and we can ban you at any time in the future for any reason or even no reaso…

The famous interview where (we now know) he lied came after he was banned again by chess.com.

As stated in the report, the reason he was banned again was that the insinuations from Magnus caused the chess.com team to reevaluate whether or not they could trust him not to cheat going forward, especially with an upcoming tournament with a million dollar prize on the horizon. After this reevaluation, they decided their previous leniency was unwarranted.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#176

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

karpierz wrote: post #173
maegul wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes lots of sense for quick real time games. But getting back to my point about how integral computer engines are in chess for training/preparation ... a script to enhance reaction times seems much more like doping in sports where it probably doesn't improve the player's intrinsic abilities only their performance.

Poker would also break if you could just use algorithms to tell you how much to bet and when to fold. I suppose any strategic, turn-based game breaks down as soon as you have a world class engine for it.

Exactly. Even just a unary hint that a particular position is dangerous would be a huge advantage to even a moderately skilled player.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#177

Post by patmcc »

Dalewyn wrote: post #168
irjustin wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cheating is completely legitimate. 100% disagree. Legitimate would mean condoning cheating. Which then means everyone should be allowed to use engines, which then would mean engine vs engine, which we already have. Human vs human no augmentation.

I commented on this already in another post, but I'll reiterate here: How do you know a player is a cheater? If you can't prove a player cheated, that is if you never catch the cheater, then whatever the player did is legitimate. It doesn't matter if the player in fact cheated and got away with it, it's all legitimate if he wasn't caught. The rules do not and cannot police the act of cheating itself, only the results…

Let's say someone robs a bank. They break into the vault, steal a bunch of gold, get out. Never caught. Lives a long life. Were they a bank robber?

A cheater is a cheater even if no one knows it.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#178

Post by BeefWellington »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #144
BeefWellington wrote: post #135

I think the thing I'd like to have clarified: Why does chess.com care about the results of an OTB game? I can understand their online tournaments being something they care about and why they might rescind an invitation based on these allegations but there's something very strange about them taking it upon themselves to ban him from the platform as a result of his play against someone whose company they're in the proc…

>I think the thing I'd like to have clarified: Why does chess.com care about the results of an OTB game? They run money tournaments and hope to have top GMs join and advertise their service by playing, streaming, and commentating the tournaments. You really don't see why they would prefer not to have an OTB cheat invited to these events? Not to say that Hans has been proven to be a cheat, but it does explain why they…

> You really don't see why they would prefer not to have an OTB cheat invited to these events?

No, I definitely see why they would rescind his invitation. I mention so in my post you're quoting from.

My question is specifically about the "analysis" they performed of the over-the-board game that started all of this off.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#179

Post by gpm »

boole1854 wrote: post #175
gpm wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Edit: This paragraph is wrong] As I see it he was largely banned for lying about his past cheating... which makes a lot of sense given that one of the conditions they impose for reinstating the account is telling the truth about the cheating (at least privately). Either way, chess.com kept their side of the deal, their side of the deal was "and we can ban you at any time in the future for any reason or even no reaso…

The famous interview where (we now know) he lied came after he was banned again by chess.com. As stated in the report, the reason he was banned again was that the insinuations from Magnus caused the chess.com team to reevaluate whether or not they could trust him not to cheat going forward, especially with an upcoming tournament with a million dollar prize on the horizon. After this reevaluation, they decided their p…

Oops, I really should have double checked the timeline...

Edited to warn people that that portion of my post was incorrect.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#180

Post by kadoban »

patmcc wrote: post #174
lmm wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really can't shake my personal feeling that chess as a sport is just simply dead, especially as an online e-sport. Especially in combination with the possibility that there's plenty more cheating that they're not catching/detecting. Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). This is a major scandal that s…

>>Online chess is bigger than ever, and some kind of botting/cheating is possible for virtually every e-sport (indeed I'd say many are easier than chess). I think it's the other way, chess is about as easy to cheat as it gets. With chess you can have a perfectly usable cheating system that isn't on the same computer at all - computer A is clean, and is where you actually play on chess.com, computer B is where you ent…

For shooters, bots or assists that only use vision and normal input (special mouse/keyboard) aren't hard to imagine and I'm positive already exist. I know specifically I read a while back about mice that do recoil correction to improve aim, and things like "click when something that looks like a head is in the crosshairs" would be a weekend project at most for a bored college student.

Strategy games may be harder, but still not going to take too long before those exist.

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