Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#91

Post by MarkMarine » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:17 AM UTC

m463 wrote: post #61

STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

> The parking sensors on the Tesla are really good and very useful. I respectfully disagree. I think their primary use case is parking. Tesla does a really good job with automatic parking, and it IS useful especially for parallel parking. But honestly, I have curbed my rims and hung up my underbody front spoiler on a curb and they did not help. Really there is an opportunity for cameras to protect the car from nearby…

I don't use the automatic parking, but I find the ultrasonics quite useful in my own parking, maybe I've been more lucky or just more hyper careful, but I've never scratched the front or rims on a curb. The feedback about the shape of the obstruction and the distance it is away from you is great, much better than my 2014 era vehicle. I would like to see some lower sensors, maybe a single pixel lidar to look for curbs or something, but I think that is going the wrong way with component count for them.

To just say that these features that are pretty standard on any other car at this price point are "coming soon" is laughable with Telsa's delivery cadence. I'll wait for vision based parking, I'm sure it's coming right on the heels of full self driving in 2019 (not here,) smart summon in 2019 (delivered in what, 2021, and the only thing I've seen it do is nervously back out of a spot then try to merge into a surface street instead of pick me up,) The Tesla Semi, Tesla Cyber truck, and now a robot, which is hilarious because they couldn't even get the million dollar industrial robots to work on their line, can't say I've got a lot of faith in some 20k robot from Tesla.

No, they overpromise and basically just don't deliver, why anyone would take Tesla's word for this I don't know.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#92

Post by kube-system » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:18 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #82

gwicks56 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My $20k Mazda won't allow me to rear-end somebody even if cruise control is switched off. Neither will my wife Subaru.

Do people actually try this? I'm pretty sure my Subaru does the same. But I'm not brave enough to actually try a rear-end. I've been thinking of getting a big cardboard box to try with, but so far it's only an idea :)

The IIHS tests vehicles with automatic emergency braking at 12mph and at 25mph.

When these systems were new, many vehicles were only able to decrease collision speeds. These days, many vehicles completely avoid crashes at both 12 and 25mph.

Even a new base Honda Civic won’t hit the car in front of it at 25mph. (Or a pedestrian!). https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/honda/civic-4-door-hatc...

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#93

Post by vl » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:18 AM UTC

martin_a wrote: post #59

drcross wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's are outselling every other manufacturer (ICE or otherwise) in many countries for the last quarter and they are still severely supply constrained; your personal antidotal data point doesn't serve much purpose in the broader context.

Tesla reached a mere 1.5% share of new cars in August 2022 in Germany. They are far away from "outselling" all the others.

Germany car marked is skewed towards Germany carmakers. Apart from obvious reasons, car leases through employers are only for German cars.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#94

Post by dahfizz » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:22 AM UTC

LightG wrote: post #54

rootusrootus wrote: post #47

This does not make me optimistic for Tesla's future. Unless this is truly a temporary thing due to a supply shortage and they are planning to return to normal when they can. Tesla's track record is poor. They cheaped out on a few dollars for an IR rain sensor like everyone else uses, and as a result the wipers on a Model 3 are psychotic. Combine that with their hatred for manual controls, and I had a terrible experie…

These all look like push factors and are serious enough on their own. But I don't even need them. I'm pulled by Hyundai. Their recent design language has me and I'd argue they have the better all around packages. Personally, Telsa aren't even the top dog anymore. It'll take time for others to see it.

I agree that Hyundai is killing it, and I will seriously consider the ioniq 6 when it is available.

However, I don't think you can discount Tesla here. They produce ~ 5x more model 3's than Hyundai can produce ioniq 5's. And the Tesla battery / motor specs are much better.

I don't see any real competition for Tesla at their price point, specs, and production capabilities. Which is frustrating, because I want an EV but I will not buy a Tesla.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#95

Post by ouEight12 » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:23 AM UTC

petilon wrote: post #84

STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

> There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. Not true. Elon Musk has long maintained that cameras/vision is all that is needed [1]. After all, that's all a human has. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is...

> After all, that's all a human has.

As a human that has only eyes, I've smashed the underside of my front bumper on many a curb over the years in various cars because just sight alone, blocked by the hood and front end of a car is a crappy way of judging things like that.

I say this as someone who absolutely loves his Model3.. but a step back is a step back, no matter how one spins it.

Radar-delete was a user experience negative for me as well. My autopilot experience today is far more 'jerky jerk' in terms of stop/go traffic than it ever was in the glory days of 'radar distancing data', so much so that AP is now banned on anything but 'smooth sailing highway driving' when I have certain motion sick vulnerable individuals in the car. Add on to that it's now (rightfully, given it's lost the radar available data) far more touchy about weather conditions before it'll even engage. :(

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#96

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:25 AM UTC

Qworg wrote: post #62

aeternum wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the removal of radar, they showed some pretty convincing data that the radar was too noisy to be useful, especially with discriminating things like highway overpasses vs. stopped cars. They showed that vision could already outperform radar. With these parking sensors it's different. They have no current alternative and it will cause a pretty significant loss of functionality. Disappointing move.

I'd love to see the convincing data RE: radar - they're using the same radars as every other car that has emergency braking from the car in front of the car that's in front of you. I've not heard of many "phantom braking" sessions from these other vehicles - I may have missed something.

They were using the radar for lane guidance. That's why they had to have a whitelist of locations where the radar was false triggered by the roadside environment. It never actually worked properly and they just papered it over with a hack to temporarily blind their input.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#97

Post by paulryanrogers » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:26 AM UTC

jjcon wrote: post #85

avidphantasm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess they think their computer vision and AI can catch up to and exceed the visual processing capabilities of vertebrates with their millions of years of evolution. I think they are wrong. Multi-media sensor data fusion is the only sane path for the foreseeable future, in my lay opinion.

>an catch up to and exceed the visual processing capabilities of vertebrates with their millions of years of evolution I mean tons of technology outperforms humans by a mile... plenty of other computer vision systems already outperform people so not sure why Tesla would be exempt here due to 'evolution'.

Because driving isn't some narrow task. It has a lot of variability in conditions. Human brain is very adaptable, yet we require 16+ years of training before they can take the wheel.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#98

Post by pclmulqdq » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:27 AM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #48

STRML wrote: post #22

There are multiple tells that this move, just like the removal of radar, is supply-chain and cost-driven and not actually driven by engineering. If this were a planned move, the software would already be ready to replace it. It is not. Cars without radar still aren't at parity with the car that have it, although they "fixed" this a few weeks back by simply turning off the radar on the older cars. The parking sensors…

High-end as defined by what besides price? Not necessarily snark, I haven't heard too much good about fit and finish...

People who have never driven a car worth more than $50,000 love the luxury feel of their Teslas. It's been really interesting to see how many people had a Tesla as their first expensive car.

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#99

Post by bearjaws » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:28 AM UTC

akerl_ wrote: post #25

mlajtos wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why they decided to remove ultrasonics is that combining contradictory signals from cameras and ultrasonic is not straightforward. What should have the higher precedence? So they ultimately decided that cameras can do what ultrasonics can do, but even better. They won't remove ultrasonics from the delivered cars, but they will probably disable them in coming months.

How could vision possibly replace the front bumper ultrasonics? Their primary function for me is showing proximity to objects at low speed, and many of those objects aren’t visible to the front camera because the hood is in the way.

I am with you on this, there is no way the vision system can go down to When I pull into my garage sometimes it recognizes my shelf as a car ffs....

Re: Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision

#100

Post by Ninjinka » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 3:29 AM UTC

Geohot was right. Tweet re: LIDAR, but still: "When this delusion ends and all these companies fold, it won't be LIDAR vs. Or ride sharing vs. None of this matters. All that matters is building an intelligent machine. Self driving is 100% a software problem. Given software written by God, a smartphone can drive a car."

https://twitter.com/comma_ai/status/1577045884159676416?s=20...