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The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

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Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#41

Post by gbear605 »

msbarnett wrote: post #22
maegul wrote: post #5

So page 9 from the last paragraph is interesting. Chess.com basically indicate that apart from Hans, a number of highly rated players (including higher than Hans) have been caught and admitted to cheating. I haven't gone over the report thoroughly, but it's clearly focused on Hans's conduct and not so much on the state of play regarding online cheating, which is, even by Magnus's statement, the chief focus of all of…

> Second, that it's common amongst the elite of the sport is huge. Either online chess is somewhat dead on arrival as a sport and was never taken seriously by many players (which makes sense to me given how integrated computer engines are in the sport) ... or the chess world needs to go through some sort of cultural revolution here. Really? My takeaway is that chess.com is doing a better job of detecting cheaters tha…

They didn’t find any instances of cheating after August 2020. At that point his OTB ELO was only around 2450. It’s only after his last known instance of cheating that he improved into the truly great level.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#42

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

crystaln wrote: post #20

Seems to be happening in the poker world as well. https://twitter.com/dexerto/status/1575867098328289280

For anyone not following this I'll save you some time with the TL;DR:

Hustler Casino livestreams a regular game with High Stakes Poker. A new player who is also a wealthy model wife type made a call against a pro that sucked out where her decision making was baffling. Off camera but on mic the pro demanded his money back. Then it blew up into a giant drama of accused cheating.

Here's my read on what happened: this woman is basically buying her way into being a poker celebrity, something many people have done before, some of them successfully in the long run. She's new the game, and pretty clearly not as sophisticated a player as the rest of that table, to put it mildly. This hand would be a very bizarre one to cheat in, as there were others with much more upside and that would trigger less suspicion. On the other hand, new players often combine both overconfidence with nervous panic, especially when say this is the biggest stream you've gotten onto yet with your plan.

So basically I think she just made a huge emotionally driven donkey call like you'd see at a drunken house game, then just said whatever she thought would sound smarter than "I did a donkey call." Then when this big figure in the poker world is giving her the death stare and then asking for his money back, she probably just wanted to put out the fire as quickly as possible.

This is by far the most parsimonious explanation.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#43

Post by noncoml »

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #40
noncoml wrote: post #38

“Our investigation has revealed that while there has been some noteworthy online play that has caught our attention as suspicious since August 2020, we are unaware of any evidence that Hans has engaged in online cheating since then.” So he was re-banned for absolutely no reason. He kept his side of the deal, i.e. not cheat again on chess.com platform. Chess.com didn’t keep theirs.

An admitted cheater has been playing suspiciously. “No reason” lol.

They could have chosen to ban him for life when they caught him cheating. I would have no sympathy for him in that case.

But the document paints a different picture. He cheated, and they agreed to re-enable his account if he promised to not cheat again.

According to chess.com he kept his promise. So why the sudden new ban?

I would agree with you that the initial cheating was enough for lifetime ban. But chess.com decided against it at the time.

Reconsidering their decision 2 years later without new evidence, is kind of shitty.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#44

Post by draw_down »

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #40
noncoml wrote: post #38

“Our investigation has revealed that while there has been some noteworthy online play that has caught our attention as suspicious since August 2020, we are unaware of any evidence that Hans has engaged in online cheating since then.” So he was re-banned for absolutely no reason. He kept his side of the deal, i.e. not cheat again on chess.com platform. Chess.com didn’t keep theirs.

An admitted cheater has been playing suspiciously. “No reason” lol.

No post body was provided.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#45

Post by glenstein »

htrqball wrote: post #36
lysp wrote: post #19

> The conventional wisdom is that if you are not a GM by age 14, it is unlikely that you can reach the top levels of chess. > While that statement may seem discouraging, it has been borne out in modern chess. > Greats like Fischer, Kasparov, Carlsen, and almost all of the modern GMs who have been established as top five players, were notable GMs by age 15 at the latest Wow.

Aronian was a late bloomer. No evidence here at all.

How representative is Aronian as an example of skill trajectories in chess?

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#46

Post by subroutine »

karpierz wrote: post #6
maegul wrote: post #5

So page 9 from the last paragraph is interesting. Chess.com basically indicate that apart from Hans, a number of highly rated players (including higher than Hans) have been caught and admitted to cheating. I haven't gone over the report thoroughly, but it's clearly focused on Hans's conduct and not so much on the state of play regarding online cheating, which is, even by Magnus's statement, the chief focus of all of…

> Using a computer engine is part of learning and preparing in chess (AFAICT). What other sport has a similar issue where an extremely useful and essential and highly available tool in the sport is considered cheating based entirely on using it within the narrow window of a game? Of course it was going to leak into play in online games where you only have the data feed of moves and nothing else connecting the players…

Trying to think of an example in 'physical' sports (give me some rope here)... in baseball you start by using light aluminum bats, then in college they impose weight rules on non-wood bats, then in the MLB they impose weight rules on wood bats. However, pro players sometimes train with non-regulation bats to work on bat speed or for pregame warm up. Rarely, a training bat will accidentally get used during a game. If such a bat breaks during the game, it will reveal itself as a hollowed or corked bat. The consequences, esp with regard to public perception, for such mistakes are severe.

https://fanbuzz.com/mlb/sammy-sosa-corked-bat/

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#48

Post by gbear605 »

berkut wrote: post #37
erdevs wrote: post #27

This report provides a detailed background of Hans' potential cheating, and detailed breakdowns of certain aspects of chess.com's cheat-detection methodology, including previously unknown (or little known) methods such as window focus change event monitoring and post-focus-change move analysis.[1] The report also reveals Niemann's engine move correlations alongside over two dozen chess Grandmasters who have admitted…

Does engine correlation actually prove anything though? Some of the 'statistical analysis' that has been posted on twitter regarding it in the last week has been against hundreds of engines, so 'engine correlation' seems to mean "the move made matched against at least one engine that would have made that move" I think?

Chess.com explicitly states in the report that that sort of methodology does “not meet our standard” for cheating detection. If they don’t feel comfortable using it, I certainly don’t.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#49

Post by currenciessfe »

noncoml wrote: post #43
NotYourLawyer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An admitted cheater has been playing suspiciously. “No reason” lol.

They could have chosen to ban him for life when they caught him cheating. I would have no sympathy for him in that case. But the document paints a different picture. He cheated, and they agreed to re-enable his account if he promised to not cheat again. According to chess.com he kept his promise. So why the sudden new ban? I would agree with you that the initial cheating was enough for lifetime ban. But chess.com dec…

Because of the public uproar?

Happens all the time in all kinds of fields.

Re: The Full Chess Cheating Report of Hans Neiman

#50

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

maegul wrote: post #12
karpierz wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using a computer engine is part of learning and preparing in chess (AFAICT). What other sport has a similar issue where an extremely useful and essential and highly available tool in the sport is considered cheating based entirely on using it within the narrow window of a game? Of course it was going to leak into play in online games where you only have the data feed of moves and nothing else connecting the players…

I don’t know about those games … but isn’t the incomplete/hidden information a fundamental difference from chess and how easy it is to cheat?

Only partly. In DOTA for example one of the more common cheats is scripting that provides the player with reaction time more like a pro in triggering items and abilities.
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