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Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

globalpolicyjournal.com

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Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#121

Post by happytoexplain »

mrchucklepants wrote: post #91
spaetzleesser wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ Capitalism just values what people value. ” Capitalism values what capitalists value.

It doesn't matter what the "capitalists" value if they have no customers.

But a person's values do not fully or directly translate through their consumer habits, and then through the actions of those higher up along the chain. There is a common fallacy that strong proponents of capitalism, especially free markets, believe in (or pretend to), which essentially goes: If you patronize x, you either condone all negative consequences of x's actions, or you're ignorant/hypocritical, and further, if it's the latter, the system should not or can not be changed to mitigate those consequences. But, every part of that is false by oversimplification.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#122

Post by landemva »

geenew wrote: post #62
_8j50 wrote: post #26

Hear me out: "Climate change" is a terrible phrase, of course climate changes, when talking to regular people that's like saying "water flow" to describe flooding. "Climate destabilization" or something akin to that would communicate what is happening better to the people that vote.

At this point, there's been - Inadvertent climate modification* - Global Warming - Anthropogenic Global Warming - Global Heating - Climate Change - Climate Crisis - Climate Emergency I don't disagree with the thrust of your point, but the same argument you make against 'climate change' could also be made against 'climate destabilizaiton', since destabilization can have human and non-human causes (for example, the ris…

Three decades of cooling was a concern.

No End in Sight to 30 Year Cooling Trend https://www.nytimes.com/1978/01/05/archives/international-te...

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#123

Post by landemva »

titzer wrote: post #19

Nah, capitalism is just the most efficient system for economic growth. It's economic growth that's driving climate change, and economic growth is driven by population growth, reduction in poverty, and the hedonistic treadmill. It doesn't matter what -ism you put on it, climate change is driven by burning fossil fuels and every -ism would do the same. Fossil fuels are a very decentralized incentive problem; they are e…

> capitalism is just the most efficient system for economic growth.

Capitalism is just the best system for economic efficiency to fulfill people's desires/wants.

Wasteful growth is due to government-sponsored debt money.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#124

Post by unity1001 »

csallen wrote: post #113
unity1001 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wondering what are countries such as china and india doing to maintain a cleaner planet if anything at all They did SO gigantic a reforestation that it is visible from space. https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144540/china-and-in... > We keep blaming ourselves while underdeveloped and corrupt nations pollute virtually everything in the their management. That literally sounds like supremacist, 'we are civilize…

Is there any evidence whatsoever that the "majority of the emissions of those countries belong to Western corporations"? From what I've seen, the vast majority of the emissions/pollution from China and India are byproducts of them supporting their own citizens. It's not all exports. It's not majority exports.

> Is there any evidence whatsoever that the "majority of the emissions of those countries belong to Western corporations"?

Just check how much of offshored manufacturing is in China...

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#125

Post by Schroedingersat »

civilized wrote: post #119
Schroedingersat wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no capitalist nuclear reactors. They're all funded through government intervention for non-market reasons. The general trend is for more private intervention leading to them being less successful and more likely not to even be built. The EDF was a public entity when they built most of their reactors, and Flamanville was an absolute debacle. Capitalism is fundamentally incapable of building for the future an…

I agree that government is needed for the biggest "capital" expenditures. Separate point from the article, which is just more cliche "once we somehow stop believing in the capitalism ideology (and believe in my preferred ideology instead) people will stop being bad and there will be sunshine and rainbows"

No. It's the same point. Capitalism is fundamentally incompatable with the commons, long term good, managing externalities, or wellbeing for all. If we don't control capital it will continue exactly the same destruction it always has.

How we do that and to what extent is an open question, but first we have to acknowledge the reality of problems that markets are the wrong tool for.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#126

Post by civilized »

Schroedingersat wrote: post #125
civilized wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that government is needed for the biggest "capital" expenditures. Separate point from the article, which is just more cliche "once we somehow stop believing in the capitalism ideology (and believe in my preferred ideology instead) people will stop being bad and there will be sunshine and rainbows"

No. It's the same point. Capitalism is fundamentally incompatable with the commons, long term good, managing externalities, or wellbeing for all. If we don't control capital it will continue exactly the same destruction it always has. How we do that and to what extent is an open question, but first we have to acknowledge the reality of problems that markets are the wrong tool for.

The mainstream developed country view is to regulate capitalism and have government fund big bets and basic research, not dismiss capitalism as fundamentally incompatible with everything we're supposed to value.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#127

Post by jshen »

otikik wrote: post #56
jshen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to capitalism, I know of no system where “consequence of consumption” was a major aspect of the system. I’m trying to figure out where capitalism becomes a factor here.

Well if you hunted in the King’s forest, they chopped your head off. That’s a clear consequence of consumption.

That’s not about consumption, it’s about property rights.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#128

Post by jay_kyburz »

sulcate wrote: post #101
jay_kyburz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have the technology now (or in the next 100 years) to move some of our people into moon bases here on earth. If I were Musk I would be building these now.

This is irrelevant and misses the point. Even a completely 'trashed' earth that renders billions displaced or suffering amidst ecological catastrophe is still infinitely more hospitable to life than celestial bodies that are completely devoid of that benefit in the first place.

I was responding to the op saying that humans face extinction. I don't think that true. I think we could have the tech to live in "moon bases" here on earth once it has been rendered a desolate rock. And yes, billions will die.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#129

Post by jay_kyburz »

chaostheory wrote: post #58
epistasis wrote: post #49

Is every form of industrialization, from the USSR to the UK to the US to China, capitalist? Is the current energy transition, funded by massive amounts of capital, and the result of industrialization of technology, somehow less capitalistic? Are the ESG efforts somehow less capitalist? Sometimes, our mental frames are traps rather than tools for understanding the world. This essay makes me think that this person is q…

There’s no denying that capitalism is “grow or die”, but so is socialism. Like capitalism, socialism needs working adults to outnumber both retired seniors and non working age children. The only way socialism can avoid the constant growth requirement is if they have a “you only eat if you work” rule. Historically, socialism’s rate of pollution is on par with capitalism

I think its important to recognize that right at the top of the capitalist pyramid, where the money is all ultimately flowing, is people. And people, unlike companies, can do whatever they like with their money. They don't need to grow or die at all.

They can choose to spend it on fixing our societies problems, or they can piss it away on Champagne and Caviar.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#130

Post by chaostheory »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #129
chaostheory wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no denying that capitalism is “grow or die”, but so is socialism. Like capitalism, socialism needs working adults to outnumber both retired seniors and non working age children. The only way socialism can avoid the constant growth requirement is if they have a “you only eat if you work” rule. Historically, socialism’s rate of pollution is on par with capitalism

I think its important to recognize that right at the top of the capitalist pyramid, where the money is all ultimately flowing, is people. And people, unlike companies, can do whatever they like with their money. They don't need to grow or die at all. They can choose to spend it on fixing our societies problems, or they can piss it away on Champagne and Caviar.

That’s not true due to the system and its forces like inflation. Mix in our social safety nets and you’ll realize that our mixed economies are highly reliant on growth unless you want to end social security, Medicare, and (for non-US developed nations) universal healthcare. You still need growth even if you’re not “pissing it all away on champagne and caviar” ie the proportion of working, taxable adults needs to greatly outnumber retired senior citizens who keep living longer and longer, while couples keep having less and less children
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