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Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

globalpolicyjournal.com

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Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#71

Post by nyokodo »

> Soviet-type societies were destructive of the environment on a level comparable to the West, and turned into repressive class societies sui generis (of their own type).

Indeed Russia had an explosion of greenhouse gas emissions during the Soviet period that it hasn’t equaled in the 3 decades since. [1] So this article reads like anti-capitalist propaganda that explicitly blames capitalism except when it briefly and begrudgingly mentions the Soviets who weren’t real socialists like the author.

1. https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/russia

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#72

Post by dan-robertson »

otikik wrote: post #41
yrgulation wrote: post #24

Quoted post unavailable.

That is incredibly short sighted. The reason why you don’t see that much pollution in your country is that it has been outsourced to other countries with more lax pollution laws and less worker protection laws. This means that fabrication of an item produces more pollution than if it was built in your country (where there’s more regulation). And then there’s even more pollution due to the long transportation haul. Bu…

At least for CO2, emissions haven’t been outsourced much. At least, emissions in developed countries are still falling when adjusting for trade. Most of the rising emissions in developing countries like China and India are due to them getting richer rather than becoming the worlds factories. I don’t know how other pollutants compare. Likely worse as they are not an issue for western companies to care about so much.

On CO2: https://ourworldindata.org/consumption-based-co2

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#74

Post by hnuser847 »

jfengel wrote: post #54
yrgulation wrote: post #24

Quoted post unavailable.

That's kind of the point of the article: it's all capitalism. (Despite the rule of the Chinese Communist Party, it's run under "capitalism with Chinese characteristics".) Capitalism is the reason we have climate change: the environment is an externality that isn't priced in, and so it's treated as zero cost. Anybody who tries to incorporate that cost single-handledly will be at an economic disadvantage to somebody wh…

> the environment is an externality that isn't priced in, and so it's treated as zero cost.

Was there ever a point in human history where this was NOT the case?

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#75

Post by kodyo »

jfengel wrote: post #54
yrgulation wrote: post #24

Quoted post unavailable.

That's kind of the point of the article: it's all capitalism. (Despite the rule of the Chinese Communist Party, it's run under "capitalism with Chinese characteristics".) Capitalism is the reason we have climate change: the environment is an externality that isn't priced in, and so it's treated as zero cost. Anybody who tries to incorporate that cost single-handledly will be at an economic disadvantage to somebody wh…

Western countries have existed under centrally-managed economies for over a hundred years. I don’t know where this free-market blame comes from.

Build nuclear plants. No communism necessary.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#76

Post by nightski »

resoluteteeth wrote: post #64
epistasis wrote: post #49

Is every form of industrialization, from the USSR to the UK to the US to China, capitalist? Is the current energy transition, funded by massive amounts of capital, and the result of industrialization of technology, somehow less capitalistic? Are the ESG efforts somehow less capitalist? Sometimes, our mental frames are traps rather than tools for understanding the world. This essay makes me think that this person is q…

> This idea that capitalism is all growth is a very simple-minded and inaccurate view of capitalism. It's also the death of firms. It's stagnation. Its fortunes squandered, in addition to fortunes built. Capitalism incentivizes increased economic output, which incentivizes increased energy consumption. Barring regulations to internalize the externalities of co2 emissions, this means it incentivizes increased fossil f…

Energy is the lifeblood of humanity. We can't demonize it, the only path forward is to embrace it and find a way to utilize the near infinite energy available to us in the universe in a fashion that is environmentally safe.

Also capitalism is about efficient allocation of capital. It really doesn't require growth of the economy as a whole (imho). Sure it encourages innovation and growth of new ideas, but that is usually at the expense of stagnating and old ideas.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#77

Post by nostromo »

otikik wrote: post #41
yrgulation wrote: post #24

Quoted post unavailable.

That is incredibly short sighted. The reason why you don’t see that much pollution in your country is that it has been outsourced to other countries with more lax pollution laws and less worker protection laws. This means that fabrication of an item produces more pollution than if it was built in your country (where there’s more regulation). And then there’s even more pollution due to the long transportation haul. Bu…

Germany and the US also export a tremendous amount of goods, and do so without clogging up our rivers (and eventually the ocean) with trash.

And studies have shown that only 15% of China's CO2 emissions are for the production of exports. That means that 85% of their CO2 emissions are for local production. [1]

Lastly, the amount of economic value the US and other advanced nations produce per unit of Co2 is much higher than China, which is one of the least efficient from Co2 to value. [2]

1. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-15883-9

2. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PP.GD?most_...

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#78

Post by yrgulation »

otikik wrote: post #41
yrgulation wrote: post #24

Quoted post unavailable.

That is incredibly short sighted. The reason why you don’t see that much pollution in your country is that it has been outsourced to other countries with more lax pollution laws and less worker protection laws. This means that fabrication of an item produces more pollution than if it was built in your country (where there’s more regulation). And then there’s even more pollution due to the long transportation haul. Bu…

Not at all, no. You know whats short sighted tho? Skipping the part where i said we _all_ need to do our part and that there is pollution here as well, and jumping straight into deflecting the blame on to “us” while not doing enough.

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#79

Post by fghfhgfh »

datadata wrote: post #27
titzer wrote: post #19

Nah, capitalism is just the most efficient system for economic growth. It's economic growth that's driving climate change, and economic growth is driven by population growth, reduction in poverty, and the hedonistic treadmill. It doesn't matter what -ism you put on it, climate change is driven by burning fossil fuels and every -ism would do the same. Fossil fuels are a very decentralized incentive problem; they are e…

The valuing of economic growth seems to be almost required as a Darwinian feature of nations. Resolve as a nation to value economic growth less than your neighbors, and you will soon be overpowered by them.

Have you been to small villages in developing countries? Their lives revolve around capitalism and local markets. Everyone knows each other. I've never seen more "neighborly" places

Re: Climate Change Is the Product of How Capitalism “Values” Nature

#80

Post by fridental »

epistasis wrote: post #49

Is every form of industrialization, from the USSR to the UK to the US to China, capitalist? Is the current energy transition, funded by massive amounts of capital, and the result of industrialization of technology, somehow less capitalistic? Are the ESG efforts somehow less capitalist? Sometimes, our mental frames are traps rather than tools for understanding the world. This essay makes me think that this person is q…

Bravo! You've nailed it.
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