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From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

jasonshen.com

211–220 of 352 posts

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#211
post #198
post #9

"The experience was physically taxing, he was diagnosed with tendonitis after moving hundreds of boxes a day, but it pulled him out of his depression and helped him gain perspective and a deeper sense of meaning"....... I have mixed feelings about this. What this has proven is working at amazon warehouse sucks, and is not sustainable. I've had many physical shitty jobs in my 20's. Then, I had some health issue and co…

> This is very much poverty/shit job tourism I was thinking this too while reading it. Good for him I guess but there's sort of an eat pray love tone deafness to writing an article about the experience.

The author was pretty clearly self aware of their unique context:

"I am not going to bill an Amazon job as some sort of upper-middle-class panacea, something you go do just like you go enroll in survivalist camps or silent retreats. The job can be dehumanizing, physically wearing if not outright painful, and mind-numbingly boring if you can’t invent little games for yourself while lifting 300 boxes an hour for eleven hours straight."

It doesn't invalidate their experience.

Something I've started trying to do more consistently when reading stuff on the web is instead of asking myself, "How can I discredit or discard this author's point?" Instead, I try to ask, "What can I take of value from their writing?"

There is always ample reason to disagree with something you read. There's an edge case the missed, an exception they overlooked, a tragedy even worse than theirs, a privilege they failed to properly check, a mistake they made in their past, etc. It's not interesting to poke holes in what you read because you can do it in almost everything. Any property that is true of all writing is essentially meaningless.

Instead, I try to seek out what is true and useful in it and just ignore the parts I don't agree with. (And I certainly try to comment on those parts less.) In this case, we have an upper-middle-class successful software person who still found themselves struggling with depression despite "winning" at all the things our culture says we're supposed to do. And this person had a real, true experience where a shitty job at Amazon dramatically improved their mental health.

That's clearly telling me something interesting about our need for structure, for work that feels grounded and tangible, and likely to spend more time using our bodies.

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#212
> I think most people who dream of retirement think that it's going to be awesome. And it was—for about a month. ... But after several months of pursuing various hobbies as my whims and interests—all the things which people who aspire to retire young might look upon with envy—I felt unfulfilled. I

My experience as well, though the awesome part lasted more like 3 months and decayed slowly till about month 6 when I started to feel listless and aimless. Soon after that I hit the realization (and this is the part that's most depressing, I think) that while I wasn't happy working I was also not happy not-working. Not just depressing, a little frightening.

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obesity and weight gain in general is mainly caused by diet, not exercise. You can run 12 hours a day but if you eat 10k calories a day, you're going to end up fat.

I think the mainly part is correct, but 12 hours of running like 6-7k calories for an 150 lbs. person. As you get heavier it’s going to go up fast (and non linearly)—essentially any kind of extreme exercise is going to put an upper limit on your weight. I’m unsure if your body can even process 10k calories in day. The basal metabolic rate for a 1000 lbs person isn’t that high.

They were making a point with an exaggerated example, not suggesting that 12 hours of running or 10k calories/day is actually reasonable.

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have mixed feelings about this. What this has proven is working at amazon warehouse sucks, and is not sustainable. Sure it is, as soon as you realize employees are replaceable commodities that get used up like break pads. Sustainable for the individual? Obviously not. Sustainable for amazon. Of course, which is why it won't be changing.

It's not sustainable for amazon-ish [1]. They offer higher wages than competitors because they need to keep accumulating new employees or convincing old ones to come back. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=amazon+run+out+employees+to+...

> They offer higher wages than competitors

Do they? Ten years ago Walmart distribution center workers were making what the writer says he made at Amazon, which is itself surely the result of recent increases. No idea what Walmart pays today, especially in these post COVID-induced work and price changes. Four or five years ago, on the other hand, I'd heard Amazon was around $13 to $14.

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#215
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised to learn that for every dev working “few hours a day” or barely doing anything at all, there is another engineer doing all their work for them - usually in a constant state of fending off burnout due to having to do other peoples’ work in addition to their own.

The trick is to avoid becoming that developer.

[deleted]

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#216
Having worked those kinds of hard jobs whenever I complain about my job in tech I remind myself of those jobs and find solace in my relatively cushy job.

You know what is funny, coding, security, linux, etc... were my escape from the misery of those jobs.

I am so grateful for my job, it is better to die or something than to go back to those jobs. Glad that guy found solace but man, the politics is always 10x worse than office jobs, everyone has little to lose so they act like it, you get over the physical stuff fast but it still takes a toll, very very little time off, always struggling with money but I never fell into the "credit" trap so I was ok, but anyone that did credit if any kind (car payment, credit cards, etc..) or had kids worked a second job. You could get fired for sitting down.

I had manual labor job once, my coworkers were illegal immigrants and felons on probation. I was "laid off" (so i can get unemployment -- but I've never been on it) because I didn't look busy enough, although I finished all the work fast, never sat down and kept cleaning all the already clean stuff to look busy.

Even the nicer blue collar jobs are ruined by tech. GPS and microphones everywhere so they can squeeze every last sweat out of you. But then when they burn you out and lose out on their training cost or can't replace you they wonder why.

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obesity and weight gain in general is mainly caused by diet, not exercise. You can run 12 hours a day but if you eat 10k calories a day, you're going to end up fat.

I think the mainly part is correct, but 12 hours of running like 6-7k calories for an 150 lbs. person. As you get heavier it’s going to go up fast (and non linearly)—essentially any kind of extreme exercise is going to put an upper limit on your weight. I’m unsure if your body can even process 10k calories in day. The basal metabolic rate for a 1000 lbs person isn’t that high.

Michael Phelps is probably the only most valid extreme example!

https://olympics.com/en/featured-news/michael-phelps-10000-c...

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#218
Having something productive to do and a sense of purpose could definitely help in the short term.

However - he worked there for all of six weeks. I can see how it's helpful to have this option available for someone who needs income in the short term to make ends meet. It's the same with driving for Uber or Doordash, etc.

However, we are too dependent on Amazon as a society (USA). Partly this is because suburbanization and zoning requires driving out to the edge of town to shop at big box stores, and expensive urban real estate means smaller stores with limited variety of products.

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software development is taxing on your brain the same way physical labor is taxing on your body. It’s depressing, soul sucking work. You’re stuck inside, staring at a screen for 8+ hours a day.

If all jobs had the same salary, benefits, career path, etc, there is no way I'd trade software development for a job involving strenuous physical labor.

I would. I enjoy working on software, but honestly, the most satisfying job I ever had was a janitor, cleaning office buildings. Seriously. The job was at night - I'm a night owl. The job was performed almost entirely in solitude - I hate people LOL. I could listen to music all night and it never interrupted my work. No meetings or drawn out decisions. No "case of the Mondays". I worked my butt off physically, but at the end of my shift, my brain was still totally fresh. I used to look at it like I was getting paid to exercise because the work was so physical. I slept like a damn baby when I was a janitor. But, most of all, I really enjoyed cleaning: coming in at night, looking at a total disaster area, working my butt off, then leaving just before dawn with everything looking spotless. I took pride in it.

Kinda funny how most of the software projects I work on now are around hygiene, cleaning up old code and dead configs, stuff like that. Once a janitor, always a janitor.

Oh yeah, the worst thing about being a janitor isn't the pay. It's being treated like shit by literally everyone. People can be assholes, especially when they're talking to the janitor.

Re: From Burned Out Tech CEO to Amazon Warehouse Associate

#220
post #23

I have a sense of guilt when I compare myself to my high school friends who have to work longer, work harder, and get paid significantly less. They are just as smart, they just made different choices. And this sense of guilt and of feeling like I don't deserve it just compounds the imposter syndrome to the point I can't even enjoy what I have because I think that at any moment I'll be "discovered" and lose everything…

I have had this experience. Sometimes its important to remember that money is just a proxy. For example, I have paid for 10 friends from High School to spend a week in a 3,000 SQ FT cabin in Colorado and just relax. I'm going to say a few things that I normally wouldn't, just to better illustrate my point. A few of my friends make less than $30k a year. One is 1st grade teacher (male) and one is a full time math tuto…

Out of curiosity, did this create any weird dynamics with your friends, or expectations for the future? Also, how did you decide how much to give everyone? If one person makes $80k and one makes $30k, did you send the same amount to everyone?

Thanks for sharing your experience. Sounds like a blast!

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