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Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

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Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#801

Post by workingon »

remarkEon wrote: post #683
bluescrn wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about being banned from the entire banking system? It might not have happened yet, but I suspect we're heading in that direction. We've seen 'speech related' bans from Paypal and crowdfunding sites. Paypal even deplatformed the (UK-based) Free Speech Union (although they reverted that decision after the backlash)

When people with the wrong opinions (on who knows what, frankly, the list keeps changing) get banned from banking systems the very same people will be in the thread defending the sanctions and censorship action. “Just build your own bank.” “Just build your own currency.”

They do it to regular people every day, I was banned countless times from websites when I was a stupid kid, and more than a few times as an adult. No one cares until it happens to famous racists. I wonder why.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#802

Post by philosopher1234 »

Jochim wrote: post #795
JellyBeanThief wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cure for discrimination is forgiveness. The cure for violence is forgiveness. The cure for hatred is forgiveness. Stepping aside from the main debate, how can you possibly justify this? If I'm going to be forgiven every time I discriminate, assault, and slander people, why would I ever want to change my behavior? After all, I get rewarded for it: When I do those things I gain advantages over other people that b…

> Discrimination, violence, and hatred are antisocial behaviors. They need to be reduced in a way that is just and fair and effective. Forgiveness is none of those. The key thing for me is we give people the opportunity to change. This doesn't necessarily mean that there shouldn't be consequences. Only that the consequences are proportionate and finite. In my opinion, hostility towards people who have made mistakes i…

Is the hostility from the right holding them back? It doesn’t seem like it. is it only the left that is not allowed to have aggression?

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#803

Post by hbrn »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #766
hbrn wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on your personal story, but it would only be relevant if you found your bullies 60 years later, punched them in the face, and that somehow fixed your broken character. In the real world, your bullies are no longer the same people, and punching them 60 years later won't address your past or future problems.

Huh? Actual discrimination and hate and violence are also active and ongoing. That was my point. You can’t forgive someone for transgressions they’re determined to continue. I can forgive people for something that happened to me 25 years ago because it’s in the past. That’s the relevance of my story. I can’t forgive people who are going to do the same to me tomorrow. And no one forgiving them while they still pursue…

> hate and violence are also active and ongoing

> You can’t forgive someone for transgressions they’re determined to continue

My understanding is that hate and violence in the last few decades have been steadily declining. At the same time, self-reported perception of those has been increasing since ~2014.

Maybe there's eluding racism we can all feel but cannot measure.

Or maybe a side effect of changes to social network recommendation algorithms is that we're now building echo chambers and polarizing people.

Today there's less hate, but more talk about it. And drastic measures aimed to decrease it have a high likelihood of changing the trend.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#804

Post by Jochim »

philosopher1234 wrote: post #802
Jochim wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Discrimination, violence, and hatred are antisocial behaviors. They need to be reduced in a way that is just and fair and effective. Forgiveness is none of those. The key thing for me is we give people the opportunity to change. This doesn't necessarily mean that there shouldn't be consequences. Only that the consequences are proportionate and finite. In my opinion, hostility towards people who have made mistakes i…

Is the hostility from the right holding them back? It doesn’t seem like it. is it only the left that is not allowed to have aggression?

I didn't say the left aren't allowed to have aggression. However, I do think it needs to be directed at the right people. My point was that the right are much more likely to look past things they might disagree with rather than excluding that person entirely. The most obvious example of this being evangelical support for Trump (and other Republicans) despite his numerous affairs.

I'm in no way saying that going that far is desirable. However, I do think less ideological purity and more flexibility would be beneficial in bringing in people who agree on the core values.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#805

Post by grb423 »

ponow wrote: post #644
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The cure for discrimination is forgiveness. Too handwavy, the cure for discrimination is at the very minimum adequate public funding for primary and secondary education _everywhere_ (with adequate student to teacher ratios _everywhere_). Although the discussion is at NYU this problem is not limited to the US. The issue with this and other societal problems is that state governance is operated in 4 year cycles (much…

> the cure for discrimination is at the very minimum adequate public funding for primary and secondary education _everywhere_ So how does increasing the funding of poor white students advance Kendi's "anti-racist" program, precisely? Clearly there's no logical link between the two concepts of discrimination and government school funding, at best a historical one and where I live, government schools get way more fundi…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#806

Post by tptacek »

barry-cotter wrote: post #758
tptacek wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "books like _How To Be An Antiracist_", you mean... bad books, right? Why would you expect bad-faith actors like Kendi to do better?

What’s your disagreement with Kendi and those like him? What changed?

Nothing's changed. I think Kendi is an ideological grifter. It's frustrating to see "normie" anti-racism, of the "BLM lawn sign" variety, tainted by association with him.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#807

Post by hbrn »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #781
hbrn wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on your personal story, but it would only be relevant if you found your bullies 60 years later, punched them in the face, and that somehow fixed your broken character. In the real world, your bullies are no longer the same people, and punching them 60 years later won't address your past or future problems.

That's adorable. When white people have kids, they have to give their children the birds and the bees talk when they reach an appropriate age. When black people have kids, they have to give them the same talk, and also the one where you need to be really careful about acting a specific way around cops lest they unalive you because police officers view blacks as more aggressive than whites because of prejudice. As lon…

How would you know it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Have you considered that giving the talk and installing the idea that "cops are your enemy" might cause your kids to run away or resist the police, thus unnecessarily escalating what could be a perfectly civil interaction?

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#808

Post by seti0Cha »

lkrubner wrote: post #653
seti0Cha wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only works when you have mob behind you. What will you do when you find yourself disagreeing with the majority and they apply this technique to you?

Shame them for their bad behavior. It does not matter how many of them there are. It does not matter if I am the only person in the world who knows what right behavior is, I still must follow my conscience.

That's not how shaming works. If you try to shame someone who doesn't think they've done anything wrong, which will be case in this hypothetical scenario, they will not feel shame. They'll just think you are wrong. If a mob of people engages in public shaming, you probably still won't make that person feel shame, but you can cause them to feel humiliated and isolated and so likely silence them, along with others who might have otherwise agreed with them publicly.

Shaming is a way of silencing people who disagree with you and that only works if you do it as a mob. Otherwise you're just making yourself feel good by expressing your disapproval. Mob shaming at least accomplishes something, individual shaming is just a lazy substitute for persuasion.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#809

Post by mint2 »

andrew_ wrote: post #797
mint2 wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing surer than debates on the internet eventually leading to nazi comparisons is that some commenter will then cite godwins law. It’s actually godwins second law of nature. how pertinent nazis are to the topic is not relevant, Godwin’s law will be brought up and very often inappropriately as even Godwin himself has noted. “Godwin's law itself can be applied mistakenly or abused as a distraction, diversion…

And yet it doesn't make it any less true. The correlation exists, just as tides to moon phase, and doesn't negate the existence of either. HN has turned into that one site where any remotely ideological topic, any minutely political (cue the "everything is political crowd") will invariably bring out the "BUT NAZIS" replies. It's insufferable.

A. I wasn’t the one who broached the topic of nazis

B. This is a comment page about censorship and this thread in particular is about one party trying to end open society

So nazis are a natural comparison, and the valid comparison was attempted to be censored and avoided by bringing up an internet meme in exactly the way the originator has criticized. But hey knowing the meme is a get out of jail free card, no civil discourse needed!

Just admit that the comment would have been a valid defense of the nazi party in its ramp up. No meme-ing out of that and there’s been no attempt to deny it, just distract from it.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#810

Post by [deleted] »

mint2 wrote: post #809
andrew_ wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet it doesn't make it any less true. The correlation exists, just as tides to moon phase, and doesn't negate the existence of either. HN has turned into that one site where any remotely ideological topic, any minutely political (cue the "everything is political crowd") will invariably bring out the "BUT NAZIS" replies. It's insufferable.

A. I wasn’t the one who broached the topic of nazis B. This is a comment page about censorship and this thread in particular is about one party trying to end open society So nazis are a natural comparison, and the valid comparison was attempted to be censored and avoided by bringing up an internet meme in exactly the way the originator has criticized. But hey knowing the meme is a get out of jail free card, no civil…

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