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Failing Intro Economics

jamesgmartin.center

61–70 of 101 posts

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#61

I think there are multiple things going on here that the professor doesn’t seem to grasp: 1) The pandemic response of schools completely disrupted the learning level and style of an entire generation of kids for two years, and we’re now seeing the downstream impact of that. 2) I’m pretty sure that compared to 20 years ago, the more capable students are using AP Econ to test out of the college intro course, so you wou…

(1) As a recent-ish college grad, I can back this up. Lockdown began halfway through my final full-time semester, and even I noticed it in real-time. People don't connect with material presented in a Zoom call in the same way they connect with it in-person. Professors removed entire sections of their curricula to respond to this.

(2) I have nothing to say here. You're just plain right.

(3) Both you and the professor are right. Students have a lot of incentive to optimize for grades, in lieu of developing an actual appreciation of the material. In any class I didn't give a damn about (Economics 100, for example), I optimized for grades. Also, teaching out of a 20, 30, 40 year old book isn't conducive to interesting lectures. The information is almost always noticeably outdated. An economics 101 book with no mention of the subprime mortgage crisis or Dodd-Frank is just missing a chapter. And yes, I will be distracted by the details of a question that references such antiquated things as landlines and "neighbors you actually talk to." I think it's justified for students to expect that a decade's worth of crippling debt will pay for high quality, modern course materials.

(4) Not sure if this is anything new. Young people have been distrustful of institutions for as long as the idea of institution has existed. Maybe my generation doesn't have much trust in economists specifically. It seems like a field prone to the worst instincts of groupthink. Does every generation have a subject like that?

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder how many times a student has taken time out of their day to trek across campus to the professor's office only to find the professor away, or head-down busy grading papers, or just about to leave? Typically, professors announce office hours during which they will be available to answer questions, so this is not an issue. From a professor's perspective, online options for tutoring students are vastly inferio…

> Typically, professors announce office hours during which they will be available to answer questions, so this is not an issue. Saying something once or even a couple times that is at odds with the listener's inherent behavior doesn't count as communicating. Insisting it does sounds like the type of out of touch professors GP is talking about.

[deleted]

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let’s all do whatever the student believe At this point, I'll trust student sentiment over a professor's insistence any day of the week. Professors throw out the word "office hours" like it's self-explanatory. It's not. And unless you're a certain type of person, you just won't know or learn how a professor's office hours could help you. It's not immediately apparent to me (or particularly first generation college…

I mean if you don't know what it means you could ask? Or even google? Simply googling "office hours college" is enough to get: "Office hours are times when you can meet with your professors and teaching assistants to discuss the material being presented in class or other."

That's frankly not enough. That's plenty for a student who is on the cusp of slipping behind -- who's been trained on the culture of college since grade school.

And it's no help at all to the student who is mostly bewildered by the constant swarm of disjoint activity on a college campus. 4x so for a first generation student. These students understand math and exams. The cultural stuff in the middle mostly goes over their heads.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is too bad COVID couldn't have waited, like, 5-10 more years, we might have had VR zoom by then.

I don't see VR solving the issue per say, the tech is already there it's more a value prop issue, ie how to package it all together and make it work. Games like DayZ handle positional audio very well but a 3D engine is overkill when it's just audio that is missing. AR I think will fill this space over VR but time will tell. Imo a solid 2D layout with flexibility to 'move around' is all we need for UI. It's the audio…

I was imagining a VW UI that basically allowed the instructor to walk around and "lean down" to indicate individual focus, but that might be unnecessarily skeuomorphic, maybe you could get 99% of the way there by just moving around a token like in roll20.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this objective reality people struggle to accept?

If you don't pay your bills, people come and take your stuff. Then other people come and make you leave your residence. Then you get to live in your car. Unless someone has come and taken that.

> If you don't pay your bills, people come and take your stuff.

What gave you the idea that younger generations aren't aware of this? About 17 out of 10,000 people in the US are homeless. The vast majority of people in the US are not experiencing what you are describing.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#66
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Young people can be extremely sensitive to how they impose themselves on other people. > Professors need to get with the times and make themselves available through channels that their students are more comfortable with Let’s all do whatever the students believe it is more convenient for them, so they don’t have to impose themselves :-) (For the benefit of young people who may confused about the timeline of technol…

> Let’s all do whatever the student believe At this point, I'll trust student sentiment over a professor's insistence any day of the week. Professors throw out the word "office hours" like it's self-explanatory. It's not. And unless you're a certain type of person, you just won't know or learn how a professor's office hours could help you. It's not immediately apparent to me (or particularly first generation college…

This is a failure to understand responsibility here.

The professor is not responsible for holding your hand and explain every little term—especially terms like “office hours”, which are bog standard at literally every university. This isn’t some arcane obscure term—it’s college classes 101.

College is a useful learning experience for this type of responsibility. You say its not “self-explanatory”? Good! This is a great opportunity for the 18-year-old to learn what to do when something is not obvious. Ask! Don’t just assume it’s irrelevant.

College is a crash course in (small parts of) the real world. If you can’t figure out office hours, you’re gonna have a hard time when it comes to taxes, loans, and other real world things. And the consequences in the real world are much more severe and Real than a bad grade on a problem set.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a quantified reduction in ability, not a subjective gripe and one that is very commonly observed. A lot of programs are admitting under prepared students.

The only thing I noticed quantified in this paper was the number of students failing. Could just as easily be explained by a decline on the teacher's end.

Considering that the same system is producing both students and teachers it seems very likely that the quality of both could be declining in a feedback loop. Less prepared instructors produce lower quality students who are themselves poor instructors.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#68

I genuinely believe a lot of professors are out of touch, especially around this point: >Fourth, students seemed reluctant to come to the office seeking help. [...] I suspect there is an increased factor of intimidation associated with being lost in the material and asking a much older male professor for help. Let's ignore the weird second half assumption about 'older males' for now... Young people do not have a conc…

I don’t see what the issue is here. The professor informs the class of office hours where the door is open. I used these times when I needed to ask a quick question or clarify something. In addition to email.

The idea that these young adults should be treated so sensitively is pretty weird to me. Yes, it can be uncomfortable. Transitioning from childhood to adulthood is full of uncomfortable times.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#69
I'm a new professor that was a devops engineer in the field until a year and a half ago. I understand that out in the field, we think professors are all just lazy out of touch academics, publishing papers to meet a quota; I used to think this myself. Some definitely are, but I think its important for the audience to understand that I am new to this, working very hard at being good at this, and primarily a teaching professor (I do not do research and teach a full load, no research or administrative duties). I teach computer science. These are my observations to the five points the author raises:

1. "First, attendance was sporadic with many of my students." I think this is true and always has been true for entry level college classes. You usually have a set of students who will never come, a set of students who will always come, and the middle is what you need to worry about. My solution to this is require attendance, which I first started this year. I've noticed remarkable differences in class; I'm more involved in learning, can fix problems earlier with less feedback time, and students are more engaged with the materials outside of class.

2. "Second, work outside of class was not done with consistency." This is a tough one. I was shocked to find how many students don't read anything. Not just the textbook; they don't read documentation or even the lab assignments. I'm sure this has been a thing since I was in school in the 2000's. I think this is a case of "students just don't know how to". I try to teach them how to read documentation, as it is a skill, not something natural to common life. I also think requiring short essays on reading material is superior over multiple choice because it makes "brute forcing" through the assignment less easy. You can just copy snippets from a web search, and that happens, but again, I'm just trying to move the "middle" here.

3. "Third, basic mathematics proficiency, whatever the claims of our admissions office, is greatly lacking." This is an interesting one too, especially in computer science. Most of my students in my entry level classes do not understand the concept of a filesystem. Using phones and chromebooks their entire life, they've never had to find files outside of a search field. Some know even less about how to use the computers we bring to class. I blame this on big tech making crappy products and driving people to appliance computers, but that's a rant for another day. This is surprising but not difficult to overcome; you just have to teach it in the first week. You lose valuable time you should be teaching the material to teaching "how to find your file to submit", but good pre-made materials can alleviate this somewhat.

4. "Fourth, students seemed reluctant to come to the office seeking help." This is definitely true, but also, they don't seek out reading the text/assignments for help or on campus tutoring. I also think this is something you have to teach; how to formulate a question based on something you don't know. I also want to mention here that cheating is rampant in computer science, so this is a more tempting approach for many students. Again, another issue for another discussion.

5. "Fifth, and finally, the introductory economics course, as stated in my 2014 Inside Higher Ed article, has remained somewhat constant." Other than the student learning outcomes (SLO's), courses in college are surprisingly flexible. I'm free to do pretty much what I want in the bounds of the SLO's. But: prepping a course is very work intensive, and it takes away from the student-centric work referenced in the other 4 points.

Anyway, in closing, just want to say that there are a lot of good hardworking, non-tenured, full time professors out there. Its the hardest I've ever worked in my entire career and the most challenging work I've ever done. A lot of the points raised in the article are true, and its not just "kids these days" but systemic problems ranging from early education, tech literacy, and motivations for even attending college.

Re: Failing Intro Economics

#70

This guy has another article where he discusses AP economics (college level econ taken in high school with a test at the end that can be applied for college credit) as being superior to undergrad econ 101. I think that's an interesting position to write about. I tend to agree. My decade past high school experience found the AP courses were excellent. I did almost a dozen of them. https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2022/…

AP classes are excellent, and excellent students take them. The 101 courses in college are basically remedial courses for the students who are not excellent. I think this points to problems earlier in education: excellent students are always going to excel, but the rest of the students now accepted into college (and student debt) are not well prepared by the education they received in high school. This started before…

The twentieth century began with children making up ~20% of the workforce, which wasn't outlawed until 1938. I assume they weren't being taught Latin down in the coal mines.
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