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Cobra Maneuver

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Re: Cobra Maneuver

#141

Post by hef19898 »

trevorishere wrote: post #71
Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple, it's a matter of range, weight and balance. All other things being equal, a point defense cannon would probably be useful. However, those weapons are heavy and decidedly impractical for even something as heavy as a buff.

Last air-to-air cannon kill I'm aware of was an F-16 vs. OV-10 in Venezuela in 1992. You can watch the kill at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDASW6X0XoU . If you look closely at the moment of shoot down, you'll see the F-16 has its air breaks fully deployed (and I'd assume both leading and trailing edge flaps almost fully down) to slow down enough.

Not surprising given the significant speed difference between those two.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#142

Post by int_19h »

hef19898 wrote: post #137
unity1001 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. Even worse: Advancing missile technology has mostly invalidated the need for aircraft in a major war since a long while, and drones will literally sweep what's left of it. The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever. The drones can travel 1700 km autonomously, very hard to jam, and they are cheaper th…

Yeah, aircraft are as obsolete as tanks, the Ukrainian War showed us as much. And all major powers are only developing new generation fighters, bombers and tanks to keep the military-industrial complex busy. Or not. A Javelin can take out a tank, but not replace it. A drone, or cruise missile, can take a ground target, a missile can take out aircraft, but they cannot replace their roles. The reason tanks get destroye…

To some extent, the reason why tanks get destroyed left and right in Ukraine is because that's not actually unexpected in a peer-to-peer conflict. It's just that it's been so long since the Cold War, we kinda forgot what anticipated losses in a war like that look like.

Same goes for aircraft.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#143

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

hef19898 wrote: post #139
jabl wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the R-37M is an absolute monster missile at 600kg, even bigger than the AIM-54 Phoenix at around 450kg. For comparison the AMRAAM is about 150kg. So even if, hypothetically, Russia could sort out their issues with actually producing their ostensibly high tech designs, I find it hard to imagine this would be a mass produced missile comparable to AMRAAM. More like a special missile to take out high value targets…

Worth noting the Phoenix was discontinued with the Tomcat. And the Tomcat was the only fighterbto ever use it, with the explicit goal of killing beyond visual range and make dogfights obsolete. Didn't really work out back then neither.

The AIM-54 Phoenix, and indeed the F-14 Tomcat, come from a background of needing a carrier-based aircraft that would be able to intercept the expected threat - massed Soviet bombers with cruise missiles - at maximum possible range.

Since that threat never occurred, it is difficult to say whether it worked out. The discontinuation of the platform has more to say about the change in the threat than it does in the merit of BVR missiles.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#144

Post by unity1001 »

rnk wrote: post #118
unity1001 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in easily accessible Western media, obviously. You have to follow Indian, Chinese or other unaligned sources. Indian outlets would be the easiest. However the best and most striking is to follow the Russian/Slavic channels in Telegram. The footage there is incredible (not gore). They post what Ukrainians post online - drones in flight just before hitting their target. Drones passing over. Multiple drones flying i…

This is interesting news about the iranian drones I haven't read anywhere. Indian and Chinese media is widely available on the web, surprising this hasn't come up. Can you provide a link to some stories? My own web search found this in Politico. So I don't think it's a secret kept from western media. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/26/iranian-drones-ukra...

You can google 'Intel Slava Z' telegram channel and join it to access such stuff. Its one of the larger slavic intelligence channels. There are others too.

Such stuff wouldnt be in mass media ever because first, it reduces the competition chances of US armament makers, and second, its something that Iran did, who is obviously evil according to such corporate Angloamerican media like the Politico.

I have to add, following anything from such mainstream corporate Anglosaxon sources is as foolish as it was back in 2003. Back in 2003, there was more effort on the part of the establishment and the corporate media to keep a degree of reliability and trustworthiness. Today, its just emotional manipulation.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#145

Post by unity1001 »

agapon wrote: post #127
eru wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever. Do you have more information on that?

They are not that amazing. At least those that are being most commonly used now, Shahed-136 "rebranded" as Geran-2 in Russia. They are rather slow and very noisy . Ukraine claims that 29 of them were shot down while 12 hit their targets. They had a benefit of surprise when they started being used, but not any longer. BTW, people in Ukraine call those Shaheds "mopeds" because of their engine sound.

> Ukraine claims

If we go by Ukraine's claims, they should have been at the gates of Moscow at this point. So, just forget that.

> 12 hit their targets

You don't seem to be aware that even if we trusted that number from Ukraine itself, it would still qualify as a majestic performance since the drones are dirt cheap.

> They had a benefit of surprise when they started being used, but not any longer.

The actual videos from the front tell a different story.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#147

Post by dragonwriter »

unity1001 wrote: post #144
rnk wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting news about the iranian drones I haven't read anywhere. Indian and Chinese media is widely available on the web, surprising this hasn't come up. Can you provide a link to some stories? My own web search found this in Politico. So I don't think it's a secret kept from western media. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/26/iranian-drones-ukra...

You can google 'Intel Slava Z' telegram channel and join it to access such stuff. Its one of the larger slavic intelligence channels. There are others too. Such stuff wouldnt be in mass media ever because first, it reduces the competition chances of US armament makers, and second, its something that Iran did, who is obviously evil according to such corporate Angloamerican media like the Politico. I have to add, follo…

> Such stuff wouldnt be in mass media ever because first, it reduces the competition chances of US armament makers

Mass media with global reach exists that is headquartered in, and has as much relationship to local arms makers as exists in the US media in countries whose armament makers are the competition to US armament makers, so that explanation seems inadequate and parochial.

> Anglosaxon

Pro tip: you’ll look less like a propaganda shill if you don’t start using contextually unusual and inaccurate labels that contribute nothing to the substance of your message right after the same regime whose propaganda substance you are echoing does so prominently with the exact same terms the same way in its propaganda.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#148

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

ninkendo wrote: post #77
TylerE wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fighter guns are fixed. You aim by pointing the whole airframe.

I think the operative question is, why must the guns be fixed? Wouldn’t it be useful for guns to be on turrets that can aim in other directions? We do it with helicopters (complete with automated aiming), and we used do it with bombers in WW2, after all. I’m sure the answer has to do with aerodynamics, and the general rarity of close-range dogfighting in the first place, that make such a design impractical.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/13476480@N07/38271566385

The 20mm cannon on an F-16 is the entire assembly labeled as items 63, 72, 73 and the ammunition is 78.

How do you envisage this as other than a fixed installation?

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#149

Post by dragonwriter »

unity1001 wrote: post #103
eru wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever. Do you have more information on that?

Not in easily accessible Western media, obviously. You have to follow Indian, Chinese or other unaligned sources. Indian outlets would be the easiest. However the best and most striking is to follow the Russian/Slavic channels in Telegram. The footage there is incredible (not gore). They post what Ukrainians post online - drones in flight just before hitting their target. Drones passing over. Multiple drones flying i…

> However the best and most striking is to follow the Russian/Slavic channels in Telegram. The footage there is incredible

Social media video footage is a very good way to receive whatever emotional message the person who shot, edited, and published the video wants to convey.

Its much less useful as a basis for strategic analysis of the value of weapon systems.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#150

Post by dragonwriter »

unity1001 wrote: post #145
agapon wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not that amazing. At least those that are being most commonly used now, Shahed-136 "rebranded" as Geran-2 in Russia. They are rather slow and very noisy . Ukraine claims that 29 of them were shot down while 12 hit their targets. They had a benefit of surprise when they started being used, but not any longer. BTW, people in Ukraine call those Shaheds "mopeds" because of their engine sound.

> Ukraine claims If we go by Ukraine's claims, they should have been at the gates of Moscow at this point. So, just forget that. > 12 hit their targets You don't seem to be aware that even if we trusted that number from Ukraine itself, it would still qualify as a majestic performance since the drones are dirt cheap. > They had a benefit of surprise when they started being used, but not any longer. The actual videos f…

> If we go by Ukraine’s claims, they should have been at the gates of Moscow at this point.

Ukraine has never claimed an intent to enter Russian territory, so that is clearly false.

> You don’t seem to be aware that even if we trusted that number from Ukraine itself, it would still qualify as a majestic performance since the drones are dirt cheap.

It is a demonstration that Ukraine’s air defenses have focused on what Russia had and was using previously, and not this particular threat. Israel’s performance against this and more advanced Iranian drones (and the fact that Israel keeps jets even though it is the world leader in this class of munitions) are pretty good signals that while these kind of munitions have a role in modern combat, they aren’t magic trump cards that replace manned jets in general, or even just for ground strike roles.

This thread is a pretty good breakdown: https://twitter.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/1574414714469335046

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