Cobra Maneuver • Hacker News Board

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#101

Post by unity1001 » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 12:51 AM UTC

hatsunearu wrote: post #10

Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. You'd have to be in very close range and in a very bad disadvantage, which honestly doesn't last long (you'd blow up very fast) and when you start decelerating you become a very easy target to hit. And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. Energy is the currency you spend to maneuv…

> Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited.

Even worse: Advancing missile technology has mostly invalidated the need for aircraft in a major war since a long while, and drones will literally sweep what's left of it.

The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever. The drones can travel 1700 km autonomously, very hard to jam, and they are cheaper than the missiles that are used to shoot them. So that at this point you could bankrupt an enemy by just sending drones. If they can destroy them, they go bankrupt due to missile costs. If they cant or dont, you hit all the targets.

The only way to deal with this will be miniaturization of warfare, ie creation of mini drones and mini missiles to hunt drones. Which is still difficult to do and yet to be done because miniaturization is difficult.

Aircraft are old news. If you can destroy a target by sending an autonomous drone that travels 1700km, which costs less than a fraction of one sortie of an aircraft, leave aside the cost of aircraft, its armament and pilot training, it means that drones rule warfare now.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#102

Post by eru » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 1:14 AM UTC

unity1001 wrote: post #101

hatsunearu wrote: post #10

Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. You'd have to be in very close range and in a very bad disadvantage, which honestly doesn't last long (you'd blow up very fast) and when you start decelerating you become a very easy target to hit. And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. Energy is the currency you spend to maneuv…

> Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. Even worse: Advancing missile technology has mostly invalidated the need for aircraft in a major war since a long while, and drones will literally sweep what's left of it. The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever. The drones can travel 1700 km autonomously, very hard to jam, and they are cheaper th…

> The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever.

Do you have more information on that?

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#103

Post by unity1001 » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 1:37 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #102

unity1001 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. Even worse: Advancing missile technology has mostly invalidated the need for aircraft in a major war since a long while, and drones will literally sweep what's left of it. The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever. The drones can travel 1700 km autonomously, very hard to jam, and they are cheaper th…

> The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever. Do you have more information on that?

Not in easily accessible Western media, obviously. You have to follow Indian, Chinese or other unaligned sources. Indian outlets would be the easiest. However the best and most striking is to follow the Russian/Slavic channels in Telegram. The footage there is incredible (not gore). They post what Ukrainians post online - drones in flight just before hitting their target. Drones passing over. Multiple drones flying in and hitting their targets despite immense air defense fire. One drone even hit a weapons depot and the resulting fire from the explosion lasted for a day.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#104

Post by Sightline » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 1:46 AM UTC

lumost wrote: post #61

hatsunearu wrote: post #10

Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. You'd have to be in very close range and in a very bad disadvantage, which honestly doesn't last long (you'd blow up very fast) and when you start decelerating you become a very easy target to hit. And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. Energy is the currency you spend to maneuv…

In dcs, when a player cobras successfully it typically just results in them missing the next turn and getting shot. The delta v between the attacker, and the cobra’s aircraft is typically doesn’t allow enough time to get a missile off or guns. bin mind that dog fights happen in a one or two circle high g turn as each fighter attempts to out turn the other, cobra maneuvers require that the (losing fighter) exit the ci…

>The delta v between the attacker, and the cobra’s aircraft is typically doesn’t allow enough time to get a missile off or guns.

That's what the HMD and R-73 are made for: (ignore the shit music) https://youtu.be/-D9ZhmFxz3M?t=194

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#105

Post by fakethenews2022 » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:06 AM UTC

Karellen wrote: post #87

pishpash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a vacuum. The aerodynamics aren't possibly the same.

Surely the aerodynamics are better for firing a missile backwards. If you fire it forwards, the missile has to accelerate through whatever air resistance you're both already experiencing through even more air resistance to get to the target. That's hard. If you fire backwards, the missile uses air resistance to accelerate towards (i.e. slow down) towards the target. Even when it goes through 0mph relative to the air…

Modern fighters are all about sensing and targeting the enemy first since missiles are so deadly. The missiles are much faster than the planes so which way the missile is pointed at matters less and most of the time it is better to be pointed forward.

So the optimizations and tradeoffs are in sensing and targeting further away or being able to rotate a sensor to target an enemy off bore.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#106

Post by Sightline » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:26 AM UTC

twawaaay wrote: post #18

hutzlibu wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. " The idea is, to be able to make the kill, after you are now behind. Then it does not matter, if you are too slow. But wikipedia indeed says, this manoever has never been confirmed in real air combat, so yes, its usefullness is quite limited.

The problem is, you are now not only behind but also much slower than your opponent. And as parent poster mentioned, energy is everything. I would also point out both aircraft are in straight and level flight, basically in formation, with the pilot composed and prepared. This is not how a dogfight looks like.

"you are now not only behind but also much slower than your opponent."

That's what HMD's are for: (ignore the shit music) https://youtu.be/-D9ZhmFxz3M?t=194

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#107

Post by nelox » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:32 AM UTC

hatsunearu wrote: post #10

Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. You'd have to be in very close range and in a very bad disadvantage, which honestly doesn't last long (you'd blow up very fast) and when you start decelerating you become a very easy target to hit. And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. Energy is the currency you spend to maneuv…

It is exceptionally useful in an aerobatic display

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#108

Post by mizzao » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:35 AM UTC

unity1001 wrote: post #101

hatsunearu wrote: post #10

Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. You'd have to be in very close range and in a very bad disadvantage, which honestly doesn't last long (you'd blow up very fast) and when you start decelerating you become a very easy target to hit. And after your opponent overshoots--you just lost a ton of energy--and energy is everything in aerial combat. Energy is the currency you spend to maneuv…

> Unfortunately the circumstances where this is useful is very limited. Even worse: Advancing missile technology has mostly invalidated the need for aircraft in a major war since a long while, and drones will literally sweep what's left of it. The Iranian drones' amazing performance in Ukraine shows that warfare has changed forever. The drones can travel 1700 km autonomously, very hard to jam, and they are cheaper th…

Are you referring to the Turkish Bayraktars or a different drone?

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#109

Post by mizzao » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:37 AM UTC

Karellen wrote: post #87

pishpash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a vacuum. The aerodynamics aren't possibly the same.

Surely the aerodynamics are better for firing a missile backwards. If you fire it forwards, the missile has to accelerate through whatever air resistance you're both already experiencing through even more air resistance to get to the target. That's hard. If you fire backwards, the missile uses air resistance to accelerate towards (i.e. slow down) towards the target. Even when it goes through 0mph relative to the air…

But, missiles can't maneuver at 0mph airspeed even if traveling at 600mph in the frame of reference of a plane.

Re: Cobra Maneuver

#110

Post by mr_toad » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 2:47 AM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #68

This actually raises a question, have jets ever been in air combat? Like jet vs jet, not jet vs ground units.

Increasingly rarely it seems. The US has all the best toys and no-one else wants to play any more.

The F14 scored 130 kills… for the Iranians. The F15 has an impressive 100-0 kill ratio (mostly by Israel); zero air to air losses, but 175 losses to accidents.

F16’s have about 60 kills (almost all by Israel again, they really love American jets).

F18 two kills, I think.

Soviet airframes are pretty much the same. Almost all their kills are in the hands of Middle Eastern third parties (Syria, Egypt, Iraq).

These are wars from decades ago, and we don’t have any modern examples of large scale air combat, or of combat that wasn’t highly one-sided. F22’s have hardly ever been used, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the same happens with the F35. Too damned expensive to take out of the box.