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Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

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631–640 of 906 posts

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issue with this is we can and have isolated clear mechanisms in which certain races are treated differently as compared to others (for example, names on resumes and interview rates, property assessments given a white looking household vs black looking household, pain management in hospitals for women of various races during childbirth, etc), and do I think it is fair to say that the expectation would be if t…

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Except IQ differences between races are themselves heavily influenced by societal/ historical discrimination. And discrimination still occurs in employment practices for jobs where high IQ is not a significant predictor of capability. FWIW I don't doubt that racially-aligned genetic factors that influence appearance almost certainly affect other factors, including general cognitive ability, however we're so far off the point that it's likely to be the dominant explanation for why those from particular racial backgrounds rarely gravitate toward and ultimately succeed in particular careers that I see no benefit in focusing on it. I do however worry that many "affirmative action" policies may be well-intentioned but severely flawed and ultimately self-defeating - if I were a disabled older black female I wouldn't want to have to deal with the suspicion (in my own mind, as well in those of others) that I landed a particular role because of my race/sex/age/disabilities rather than in spite of them (or better still, because we finally lived in world where such attributes were simply considered irrelevant). There are surely better methods that can be used to help overcome undeniable levels of systemic favouritism towards those with particular attributes. I say that as a white, able-bodied male under 50 - personally I suspect most of the reason I've found it easy to succeed in the software industry is due to my upbringing and in particular my Dad, also a white able-bodied male who was even more successful in the IT industry even before he was 40. Virtually everyone technical or managerial in his in own companies fit the same profile - the sales department had some white female able-bodied employees under 50, and later on there were probably one or two Asian employees though I can't recall seeing any. The same industry today is undeniably more inclusive/representative of society as a whole, though we're still a long way from it. I don't think "affirmative action" has really been a big driving force, and I've certainly never worked anywhere that specifically had a policy of actively preferring candidates of a particular sex/race/age/etc. that traditionally has been underrepresented. But I would still like to see more of an effort made to encourage such candidates to apply and to ensure that there's nothing in the job-posting/interview/ selection process that might contribute towards that continued underrepresentation.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#633

He’s right to do so. Statements that your research must be presented with a filter based on how it will advance political goals calls into question the integrity of all research. When people don’t “trust the science” this will be why. But further, I’d never seen the statement from antiracist before…wow. The idea that the only cure for discrimination is discrimination is akin to saying the only cure for violence is vi…

> The cure for discrimination is forgiveness. Too handwavy, the cure for discrimination is at the very minimum adequate public funding for primary and secondary education _everywhere_ (with adequate student to teacher ratios _everywhere_). Although the discussion is at NYU this problem is not limited to the US. The issue with this and other societal problems is that state governance is operated in 4 year cycles (much…

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Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Things in the past can't be fixed. We can't "fix" past discrimination any more than we can fix 9/11 or retroactively fix the holocaust. You're right -- fix is not the right word. But you can dampen the impact of the event. For example, I think we provided various types of relief to different classes of victims of 9/11. > - Are you trying to decrease discrimination or racially biased life outcomes? If you want les…

> based on anti-racism principles these policies are indeed anti-racist, and discriminatory against whites. I don’t think the best policies are racist. Providing more financial support for single parent households helps poor, struggling single parents of every race. It doesn’t discriminate. And nor should it - poor white children deserve support just as much as poor black children do. No child deserves to be homeless…

Policies do discriminate in who they benefit, even when unintentionally so. School free lunches help Blacks more than Whites. But narratives often (usually?) matter more than discriminatory impacts — whether it helps Blacks or Whites.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you root out these reprehensible people, what do you suggest doing with them?

Shame them for their bad behavior.

That only works when you have mob behind you. What will you do when you find yourself disagreeing with the majority and they apply this technique to you?

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#636
post #625
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People love to cite this study as an example of absolute proof of discrimination, but it isn't. There is an obvious rational non-racist explanation for the outcome in question, and it is affirmative action. A black person, a white person, and an asian person with the exact same credentials mean extremely different things in terms of absolute rather than relative competence level, as a consequence of affirmative actio…

That's good information for me to consider when hiring for my firm, Standardized Test Taking, Inc.

That's a fair response, so I suppose I should add the asterisk: Conditional on a belief that test scores are correlated with ability level. However, this belief is rather common, and I wouldn't say that it is an intrinsically racist belief.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#637

He’s right to do so. Statements that your research must be presented with a filter based on how it will advance political goals calls into question the integrity of all research. When people don’t “trust the science” this will be why. But further, I’d never seen the statement from antiracist before…wow. The idea that the only cure for discrimination is discrimination is akin to saying the only cure for violence is vi…

> The only way anything stops is for people to have the humility and wisdom to say “this will stop with me.” You mean like when people decide to highlight issues with diversity and representation in academia by requiring it to be addressed?

Addressing diversity issues in academia is a pursuit that can be — and commonly is — orthogonal to presenting research.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully they should. Math papers against, fighting, or attacking DEI should be suspect.

suspect of what?

Wouldn't it be odd if a Math paper was pushing racist views?

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I "just Googled" it: > In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advanced, claims of inherent differences in intelligence between races have been broadly rejected by scientists on both theoretical and empirical grounds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence The article is full of references of primary sources that support this claim.

There is a robust empirical difference that's seen between races. That quote is about the notion that this difference is inherent. Rather, most scientists think it's largely environmental. They wouldn't have to attribute the difference to environmental factors if there were no actual difference.

So the OP is correct in saying that even if you remove discrimination there would still be differences, because the environmental factors that caused those differences remain.

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