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Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

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Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#41
post #4

I'm really curious: do people consider common lisp to be the go-to lisp today? if yes, that's awesome, I'll look into it. if no, what is the go-to? and is there an emacs-like using that lisp?

It's hard to give a blanket recommendation on a go-to lisp. I would probably recommend Clojure and Racket over CL. The biggest downside of lisps IMO is the lack of well documented, maintained libraries, and CL suffers from it more than most. For some use cases CL is a better choice, and the tooling is excellent, but it's hard to recommend.

Are there numbers on the LoC of libraries for each of these?

Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#42
post #32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If common lisp is the go-to Lisp, that's a sad indictment of Lisp itself. By commit counts in Github in first quarter of 2022, it doesn't even break into top 50 languages [1]. Surely a flawed metric, but it's damning when you have Elisp - configuration language for a freaking text editor - at #25, and Clojure at #28. [1] https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pushes/2022/1

What? Wasn't ANSI CL standardized in 1994? Besides incremental performance and security improvements, what needs to change? Compare this to other popular languages from C++ to Python, which surely generate tons of additional work by continually changing the languages themselves.

This is referring to commits across all repos using those languages, not commits to the languages themselves.

Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#43
post #4

I'm really curious: do people consider common lisp to be the go-to lisp today? if yes, that's awesome, I'll look into it. if no, what is the go-to? and is there an emacs-like using that lisp?

Kawa (like Clojure) runs on the JavaVM, but has a longer pedigree (from 1996), good compatibility with standard Scehemes (including R7RS), and has a stronger emphasis on performance: It has optional types and semi-decent type inferance so it is easy to write code as performant as Java. It also has fast startup, and is unopinonated on how you run and bundle applications: it generates pretty vanilla class files that interoperate with Java easily. See https://www.gnu.org/software/org and https://gitlab.com/kashell/Kawa

Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#44
post #32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If common lisp is the go-to Lisp, that's a sad indictment of Lisp itself. By commit counts in Github in first quarter of 2022, it doesn't even break into top 50 languages [1]. Surely a flawed metric, but it's damning when you have Elisp - configuration language for a freaking text editor - at #25, and Clojure at #28. [1] https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pushes/2022/1

What? Wasn't ANSI CL standardized in 1994? Besides incremental performance and security improvements, what needs to change? Compare this to other popular languages from C++ to Python, which surely generate tons of additional work by continually changing the languages themselves.

There are a lot of redundancies in the language standard library caused by it being an amalgamation of multiple prior Lisps. Later standards could have deprecated some of those and then later removed them to provide a cleaner system, but they were needed in order to achieve the goal of mostly supporting other Lisps out of the box at the time of the standard (that is, with few or no code changes). elt and nth as examples. The former is generic, works on any sequence, the latter is list specific. In practice, what's the reason (besides backwards compatibility) to have both of these? There are other list-only functions which either have an equivalent sequence function or reasonably could if they don't. This would have been a natural improvement over time. Even if there was a lot of debate, Lisp being Lisp means you could always keep a package around for each prior set of the standard library. The later standards would have you start a package not based on the :cl package but on, say, the :cl99 package or :cl05 package. If you needed the deprecated/eliminated features, you'd use :cl94 or import specific symbols from it if you didn't want it all.

It would also be nice to see a greater adoption of "sequence" (which has a limited set of things that qualify) being opened up so that user-defined sequences could be used with existing sequence processing functions. Same for numbers and other things. Allowing (performance is a valid concern here, though) more generic functions would open up more interesting developments later. See Julia and its application in the numerical computing domain. You can do that kind of computing in CL, but you can't use the existing arithmetic and numeric functions because they're only generic to the limit of the defined numeric tower and can't be extended beyond that.

Concurrency, totally absent in the language standard, for better or worse. On the one hand you don't necessarily want to bless a particular concurrency model, and Common Lisp is nothing if not a toolbox language (pick your base capabilities and grow it to fit your application). So you'd want some low-level primitives that can be composed rather than blessing one or two particular models. But without standardization, this isn't happening. You do have Bordeaux-threads which basically gives you a portable threads interface by mapping to each CL implementation's specific threading library. But threads can be heavyweight compared to other options, and BT limits you to the lowest common denominator across the implementations. People have built useful abstractions on top of it, still. And some implementation could always implement something like coroutines and a thread pool for distributing them, but it would be implementation specific rather than standard. Even having that as a baseline model, leaving specifics of implementation open but locking down semantics, would be a good development for CL.

And Lisp is almost uniquely able to handle transitions to later standards as I described above. You don't actually have to forfeit backwards compatibility entirely or at all if the changes are handled by moving to a new default base package. :cl-user/:cl become :cl##-user/:cl##. Accessing old features is still feasible.

Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#46
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Wasn't ANSI CL standardized in 1994? Besides incremental performance and security improvements, what needs to change? Compare this to other popular languages from C++ to Python, which surely generate tons of additional work by continually changing the languages themselves.

There are a lot of redundancies in the language standard library caused by it being an amalgamation of multiple prior Lisps. Later standards could have deprecated some of those and then later removed them to provide a cleaner system, but they were needed in order to achieve the goal of mostly supporting other Lisps out of the box at the time of the standard (that is, with few or no code changes). elt and nth as examp…

> And Lisp is almost uniquely able to handle transitions to later standards as I described above. You don't actually have to forfeit backwards compatibility entirely or at all if the changes are handled by moving to a new default base package. :cl-user/:cl become :cl##-user/:cl##

Go use cl21[0] if you care for this sort of thing.

> more generic functions would open up more interesting developments later

generic-cl[1]. But in a prefix-oriented language, I just don't see this as particularly important.

> you don't necessarily want to bless a particular concurrency model

You do[2]; this is one of the notable deficiencies in the cl standard that really bites, today. It is being worked on.

0. http://cl21.org/

1. https://github.com/alex-gutev/generic-cl

2. https://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2004/HPL-2004-209.pdf

Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#47

Emacs is awesome because it nicely handles every programming language I use. There was no mention in the article of the LispWorks editor, that was derived from Hemlock. A really nice editor to use when I need the features of the LispWorks IDE, otherwise my favorite is just Emacs configured for LispWorks and SBCL. For the discussion topic: I am not sure if the LispWorks editor is faster, snappier, etc. than Emacs beca…

CLIKI is about free and open source software.

From the homepage: "CLiki contains resources for learning about and using the programming language Common Lisp, and information about DFSG-compliant free software implemented in Common Lisp."

LispWorks is proprietary commercial software and thus out-of-scope for CLIKI.

Btw., that's a reason I don't contribute to CLIKI, as I'm not interested in only "DFSG-compliant free software implemented in Common Lisp".

Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have used Clojure on and off for probably 7 years. But when I tried to distribute my program which was a CLI tool, it proved incredibly painful. Clojure startup time is really bad over a second in the best case and it gets worse the more libraries you include. This is not a problem if you are writing a web application, but it's terrible for command line applications. The community seems thoroughly disinterested in…

Last I checked, ECL binaries are around ~10-20 MiB (including the shared file) and the price of having these binary sizes is start-up time which is around 500-1000ms. BTW, since you program professionally in CL, do you use Emacs? Doom or custom?

To be clear, unfortunately I do not program professionaly in CL. I use vim + vim-slime (jpalardy) + GNU screen + rlwrap. dotfiles here[1], here[2] and here[3].

Blog post about this will be written subsequently at https://blog.djha.skin .

1: https://git.sr.ht/~djha-skin/dotfiles/tree/main/item/dot-con...

2: https://git.sr.ht/~djha-skin/dotfiles/tree/main/item/dot-loc...

3: https://git.sr.ht/~djha-skin/dotfiles/tree/main/item/dot-scr...

Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#49
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If common lisp is the go-to Lisp, that's a sad indictment of Lisp itself. By commit counts in Github in first quarter of 2022, it doesn't even break into top 50 languages [1]. Surely a flawed metric, but it's damning when you have Elisp - configuration language for a freaking text editor - at #25, and Clojure at #28. [1] https://madnight.github.io/githut/#/pushes/2022/1

Thing is you don't have an alternative for ELisp. If you want to configure or/and extend Emacs, you've to use it. Common Lisp doesn't have such a strong connection to any platform. Nevertheless checking the list it comes as a surprise that languages like Smalltalk, Erlang, Groovy, Lean (a freaking theorem prover) are in but not Common Lisp.

That's true. However consider the context that: i) Emacs has stopped appearing even at the bottom of popular surveys like stackoverflow years ago ii) Most Emacs users probably aren't too heavily into customisation iii) Or they likely already achieved their heavily customised system years ago, and mostly enjoy stability nowadays (that's me) iv) Most customisations are too personal in nature and aren't published online (also me)

Given that, I think for Elisp to still come at #25 in this metric is a huge credit to its ecosystem for sure, but I still think that puts into perspective how much of a non-entity Common Lisp has become.

Re: Emacs-like editors written in Common Lisp

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of redundancies in the language standard library caused by it being an amalgamation of multiple prior Lisps. Later standards could have deprecated some of those and then later removed them to provide a cleaner system, but they were needed in order to achieve the goal of mostly supporting other Lisps out of the box at the time of the standard (that is, with few or no code changes). elt and nth as examp…

> And Lisp is almost uniquely able to handle transitions to later standards as I described above. You don't actually have to forfeit backwards compatibility entirely or at all if the changes are handled by moving to a new default base package. :cl-user/:cl become :cl##-user/:cl## Go use cl21[0] if you care for this sort of thing. > more generic functions would open up more interesting developments later generic-cl[1]…

> Go use cl21[0] if you care for this sort of thing.

Right, it demonstrates what I'm saying about the relative ease for CL to move forward. You'll still need to bring the implementations onboard though to be really successful. See the note in the generic-cl link about a potential performance hit (and then how to work around it) because of increased use of generic functions. Implementations can improve their performance around generic functions and method dispatch, but users (like those developing cl21 and generic-cl) aren't going to do so on their own as easily or portably. Having an actual collective standards body working on a real cl2x standard would be critical to getting all implementations moving on this.

> You do[2]; this is one of the notable deficiencies in the cl standard that really bites, today. It is being worked on.

Are all implementations moving towards some common better approach today? Or are we still stuck with bordeaux-threads (and anything built on that) as pretty much the only portable way to do concurrency in CL?

What I mean by blessing a particular model, though:

Do you use a shared-nothing BEAM style? Mailboxes per process (what is a process?)? Channels that can be passed around? Coroutines? Asyncio style? Structured concurrency? None of the above? All of the above?

CL has always been a toolbox language, many of the things programmers use actually map down to more primitive elements (even defun is a macro and you can provide your own, see SERIES and SCREAMER for examples). So instead of presenting a high-level Go-styled concurrency model or insisting on structured concurrency it would be more in keeping with CL's history to provide the baseline features that enable better concurrency (and uniform across implementations) and then let people build on that. Higher level libraries can come along later (see how CLOS came out of earlier developments like Flavors and CommonLoops), and maybe one of those can be blessed by becoming part of the standard. But the primitives will remain so variations will remain possible for those who want them.

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