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Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

fhur.me

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Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#191
post #17

> Some deep truths about human nature require instead the reflection provoked by the classics. Yes, read Dostoevsky and the classics. There is so much to learn and to enjoy. But remember that great authors didn't discover deep truths of human nature from books alone, but from their attention to the experiences of real life. “When we read, another person thinks for us: we merely repeat his mental process. In learning…

What if the deep truths about the human nature are in fact very shallow? I can imagine that all human deepness is, not unlike the very sofisticated feathers of the peacock, just a tool to increase status & SMV.

How would you explain homosexuality with this model? Historically, it has actually cost in terms of status, certainly doesn't confer reproductive fitness on the individual, and sorely restricts the individual's sexual market.

It falls apart rather quickly without the tell-tale signs of a tortured model, like modelling our solar system as the motion of circles because you won't admit the ellipse. You can do it, but you probably just need a better model.

For starters, the over-focus on the individual misses competition at level above and below, genes and groups. Secondly, it glosses over emergent phenomena too glibly. If you try to model a presidential election in terms of quantum physics and general relativity, you won't get very far. I can even point out an emergent phenomenon that radically changes this calculus, the human frontal lobes. Unlike most animals, we can suppress our immediate reactions and get mental time and distance from the world, to remap our motivations and act in ways completely absurd from the point of status and sexual market value, like suicide bombings. Status and sexual market value drop to dead zero. You can try to tie it back to status and sexual market value, passing through the activity of the frontal lobes, which would only prove my point about emergent phenomena and a tortured model.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#192

Having read about 1 to 2/3rds through most of Dostoyevsky's books: I really believe they're over-hyped. Same with Pushkin, Tolstoy, Bulgakov, and so on -- with the only exception of Solzhenitsyn. I think the difference is I'm Slavic, speak a few of the languages, and come from the cultures that succeeded those authors; so they read mostly as sentimental, overly-emotional, and superstitious, i.e. what I feel are the w…

> Their works don't feel new, novel, and original: I've seen parts and pieces of it, reflections of its essence, expressed all over the average Slavic person.

The problem with the classics is they become so inspiring to future artists and readers that the themes, parts and other things disseminate into the culture to become stereotypical and boring. It's a big chicken and egg problem often enough. What was slavic art like before these people I wonder. Something impossible to separate.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#193
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have delved into the very literature you describe, and it's not simply an issue of 'kids these days'. What all these works have in common is that they are replete with thoughtful insights about human nature, but fail to convincingly present Christianity as the solution. They tend to simply drop it on the reader without explaining the logical leap or why similar but competing belief systems couldn't also play the sa…

I would say if the words of Christ are not enough to convince someone, who else could possibly say it better? I’ve read lots of Chesterton and CS Lewis, and they didn’t change my perception of Christianity a single bit. What they did though was expose the enormous inconsistencies of the materialistic worldview. It’s not an argument for Christianity as much as a critique of its critics.

> I would say if the words of Christ are not enough to convince someone, who else could possibly say it better?

Christ didn't write anything.

The words attributed to him, a few hundred years later, are inconsistent and unreliable.

I'd love to hear from the man. I'm pretty unimpressed by those who claim to represent him.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#194
OK article is touching on the issue that no book will learn you how to live.

You have to live your life and make the mistakes on your own.

Reading books helps maybe only with getting "AHA" moment of realization - after or just before you do something stupid ;)

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#195
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar thought from Albert Einstein (1930): > ”Much reading after a certain age diverts the mind from its creative pursuits. Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking, just as the man who spends too much time in the theaters is apt to be content with living vicariously instead of living his own life.”

I love this. I always wonder why I have almost no interest in novels now although I spent my entire youth buried in them. Occasionally I feel guilty. But I think life became the novel?

"life became the novel"... Sounds beautiful but idealistic. Surely risk perception plays a role in the difference.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the Harry Potter books? Don’t throw Tolstoy at someone who havent read fiction before.

Would you really recommend YA to an adult?

I think the basic impulse is correct, actually. There's a very good chance that a person with this kind of attitude is a poor reader—of literature, at least, if not in general. If you drop them right into the heavy stuff, they'll probably bounce off really fast.

It's a skill you have to develop, like when you encounter a new musical genre. Lots of people get stuck at the "this sucks and is probably bad and overrated anyway" stage and don't open their minds and challenge themselves to understand why people like it, when encountering literature early on, similar to how many people get stuck in that same place for any musical genres they didn't learn to appreciate by age 25.

At best, they end up reading very light fiction for the rest of their lives—perhaps even YA, which is widely read among adults, in fact. At worst they decide the whole thing's a pretentious sham and they're smarter for not having engaged, which seems to be closer to the case here.

Not sure I'd go with YA if you're trying to convince someone of value in literature beyond entertainment, though. But lighter high-school tier literature, maybe. Salinger (but probably not Catcher in the Rye) or Vonnegut are decent choices, being at about the lightest end that'll still (if the reader's open to it) work those muscles. Gotta start small to develop the skills & taste to appreciate the sublime when it's expressed in written words, and to find meaning, enjoyment, and new mental tools that novice readers largely miss—which is why they often think well-regarded literature is boring and stuffy.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#197
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find a lot of classics to be foreign in their understanding of the human condition and generally just archaic, or deeply specific to their time and place.

Can you give an example? I would love to read a blog post about this perspective

Well I don’t write blogs. Or read much. Or write literary reviews. But let’s pick two.

The odyssey is a very old classic. The framework of the adventure is still great. But Odysseus is a supremacist dick. He’s pretty similar to MCU Iron Man in terms of narrative and depth. We get the sense that it’s ok to kill the people in his home at the end because he is mighty Odysseus but I think that’s pretty lame. I could go on but it’s been too long to cite examples from memory.

A tale of two cities was another one I enjoyed a lot as a teen. The sloppy romanticism of the dude who devotes his life to a love he will never have seemed really quaint, but now seems just pathetic. I’m actually really annoyed when I see behavior like this in fiction now. It’s very frequent in token gay characters because a lot of writers seem to assume that gay people fall in love with straight people and can never get over it.

Stuff that’s resonated with me at a more thematic level recently… let’s say Parasite (Korean film), Mob Psycho 100 (anime, season 1), Over the Garden Wall, Bojack Horseman, and the midnight gospel. Not very universal, but they felt more relevant and more profound. The last one cheating a bit as it’s literally philosophical interviews.

Good literature is entertaining and conveys some greater meaning. Classics tend to do a pretty good job on this, but entertainment and thematic relevance she over time quite a bit.

The original SpongeBob SquarePants movie was a copy of the odyssey’s plot for entertainment but focused on a coming of age theme of what it means to be an adult and whether it was something to strive for. Dare I ask which of the SpongeBob SquarePants Movie and the Odyssey is a better piece of literature for a 21st century kid?

I think it’s a harder question than many would give credit. But I think regardless we should be more eager to discuss thematic comprehension of art with children for the stuff they watch. Because I spent a few years in school writing essays about how every book contained the theme of “Caring” and man that was fucking dumb.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're looking to understand today's "Russian soul" and you're good at understanding metaphors, I'd recommend to just read the lyrics of "The Russian Field of Experiments" by Egor Letov, the most famous Russian punk poet: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/russkoe-pole-eksperimentov-ru... (translation #1 seems to be the most accurate although not perfect) Or you can read the lyrics while listening to the song: https:/…

Thank you for the recommendation. Perhaps I'm missing something, but my general understanding of the song is that every pursuit of ideals in Russia has brought about ruin and unless man butchers his own aspirations, the cycle of pursuit, destruction, and loss is only going to repeat itself. If so, then that's a very nihilistic assessment on life (albeit an eloquent one) but not a wholly original concept. I guess I wa…

Here's how I understand it.

First, there's a famous Tyutchev poem from 1866 which is known by pretty much every Russian

    Russia cannot be understood with the mind alone,
    No ordinary yardstick can span her greatness:
    She stands alone, unique –
    In Russia, one can only believe.
(This is essentially word-by-word translation.)

So Tyutchev claims that Russia is so unique it cannot be analyzed. I think "The Russian Field ..." represents an analysis of Russia's uniqueness through enumeration of paradoxical archetypes which Russian culture holds, which makes Russian history/existence itself paradoxical, and thus uniquely fucked up.

The song mentions elements of the following archetypes/themes:

1. greater aspirations - God, etc. 2. lust 3. brutality, desire for destruction 4. desire for greatness/domination

Of course, they are present in every human culture. However, song combines them in a paradoxical way. It's as if different layers which are supposed to be distinct are brutally mixed. And the resultant mix is not pretty.

How did it happen? The song does not answer directly, but we can figure from the history: Russia's societal development got delayed, particularly, in XIX century. It was still an agrarian country with deeply religious population, but at the same time it got aspirations to play a global role.

So e.g. suppose you're a peasant. In Church you've heard there's God, God set Tsar to rule Russia, you're supposed to love your Tsar or you're a bad man. Then you're recruited into an army and go to war and shoot at other people. Why? I guess nobody would explain, but presumably God wants and because you love Tsar you have to do it.

The song might reference this retarded societal development in line "On the patriarchal landfill of obsolete concepts", "patriarchal" referencing Orthodox Christianity and Tsar-father as a head of everything.

Thus we have a mixture of 'greater aspirations' layer with 'brutality of war', e.g. in song this paradoxical mixture is referenced e.g. in "Laws of etiquette for mortars" line. There the word for "etiquette" is actually more vague term which can be found in Bible teachings, so it hints of mixture of ethical teachings with howitzers.

But then Russia went from insanity of Orthodox monarchism straight into the insanity of communism, famous for its double-think, etc. So Russia's collective unconscious never had a chance to clean up and unmix different layers, but got even more confused.

As a result, greater aspirations did not become a guidance, but merely a veneer hiding the brutality.

You can see this happening now - Putin talks about God, unity, saving brothers, etc. But people are brutally killed and raped. And for Russians it makes sense, it is a part of an archetype - God. Greater good. Howitzers go BOOM. They are used to this.

I asked my friend "So you want to save Russian-speaking people in Mariupol from "nazis". Why are you bombing the city?!" He replied: "Of course, it makes sense - that's how liberate a city from nazis, you gotta bomb it, that's how they did it in WWII". For him, it makes sense, he saw that in movies.

So anyway, I don't think it's nihilism. Letov describes some dark fucked-up archetypes under a veneer of Russian culture, but he doesn't make predictions about the future here (aside from a possibility of these archetypes materializing - which we see, unfortunately).

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this. I always wonder why I have almost no interest in novels now although I spent my entire youth buried in them. Occasionally I feel guilty. But I think life became the novel?

"life became the novel"... Sounds beautiful but idealistic. Surely risk perception plays a role in the difference.

Risk perception. Clarify?

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this. I always wonder why I have almost no interest in novels now although I spent my entire youth buried in them. Occasionally I feel guilty. But I think life became the novel?

"life became the novel"... Sounds beautiful but idealistic. Surely risk perception plays a role in the difference.

Ah, gotcha. Yes my risk assessment was prehensile.
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