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Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

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131–140 of 298 posts

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#131
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our nations were far less wealthy when the existing stock of nuclear power plants were built, the technology available for building them have improved since then, and the raw resources needed as their inputs aren't a constraint, so why have costs risen so much relative to what we are willing to spend on it? Environmental and safety regulations are supposed to be explanations for this rise in cost, not rival explanati…

My best guess is what Freeman Dyson said in his autobiography Disturbing the Universe : he stopped working on nuclear reactors after TRIGA (01958) and Project Orion (01957 to 01961) because it stopped being fun. It became a question of bureaucracy and national security and empire-building and whatnot. So people like Dyson, who learned calculus by spending his Christmas vacation working his way through a textbok for f…

But why do you prefix years with 0?

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#132
post #55
post #34

Yes, cost is the issue. Everyone assumes that anyone hesitant about Nuclear power is focussed on the environmental or safety concerns, but that is wrong. The costs (and cost overruns) of the construction and maintenance of Nuclear reactors have been enough reason on their own to be bearish on Nuclear. I'm hopeful that new technologies, such as small nuclear reactions that can be built in a factory, will address this.

Nuclear is not fundamentally expensive[0], and most nuclear power plants currently in operation were cheap when they were built. The high costs of building new powerplants is a result of going decades without building any, leading to a loss of experience. Even still, nuclear remains competitive with other traditional power generation technologies like coal. Only with recent advancements in fracking did natural gas su…

> The high costs of building new powerplants is a result of going decades without building any, leading to a loss of experience

current economic model assigns $0 to skilled and experienced workforce. In reality it is worth billions.

This productive asset is degrading or beind destroyed through union busting, precarious working conditions, wage fixing, etc.

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#133
post #121
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage is not, in fact, hard. Its efficiency is not important beyond a few hours' worth, because it is rarely needed. For those few hours, battery efficiency is very good.

If it was rarely needed and only needed for a few hours we wouldn't need all the fossil fuel based generation to fill the gaps. I'm not aware of any significant battery based storage system deployed at scale that solves this problem. There are some large battery banks but none even close to the scale required. It's a hard problem as it would require a huge increase in global manufacturing. I'd like to be wrong here.…

It would be stupid to spend money building out storage before there is renewable generating capacity to charge it from. So, they spend on that, first.

Most of the storage, in the end, will not be batteries. Most existing storage is pumped hydro, because the dams were already there. There are lots of alternatives: underground or underwater compressed air, liquified air, underground hydrogen, tanked ammonia, buoyancy, mineshaft gravity.

Most places will keep a few days' ammonia that they can burn where they do NG today, and order more if it looks like they may need it, and can't book transmission line power. Other times, they will synthesize ammonia for sale.

Regional storage of underground hydrogen is already under construction. Hydrogen synthesis efficiency is now well over 90%, up from 60% very recently.

Until ammonia synthesis ramps up in the '30s, they will burn NG at need, without apology.

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#134
post #133
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was rarely needed and only needed for a few hours we wouldn't need all the fossil fuel based generation to fill the gaps. I'm not aware of any significant battery based storage system deployed at scale that solves this problem. There are some large battery banks but none even close to the scale required. It's a hard problem as it would require a huge increase in global manufacturing. I'd like to be wrong here.…

It would be stupid to spend money building out storage before there is renewable generating capacity to charge it from. So, they spend on that, first. Most of the storage, in the end, will not be batteries. Most existing storage is pumped hydro, because the dams were already there. There are lots of alternatives: underground or underwater compressed air, liquified air, underground hydrogen, tanked ammonia, buoyancy,…

I hope you're right

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#135
>Following the Three Mile Island accident, Naval Reactors was asked to prepare a statement on what civilian reactors could learn from the navy’s long history of safe reactor operation. Of the 111 pages prepared, 88 were devoted to training.

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#136
post #34

Yes, cost is the issue. Everyone assumes that anyone hesitant about Nuclear power is focussed on the environmental or safety concerns, but that is wrong. The costs (and cost overruns) of the construction and maintenance of Nuclear reactors have been enough reason on their own to be bearish on Nuclear. I'm hopeful that new technologies, such as small nuclear reactions that can be built in a factory, will address this.

The costs are only seen as high relative to other investments. If you tax polluting industries for the damage the cause, for example, maybe those cost overruns for nuclear reactors would be just as easily stomached as the countless highway projects that also see cost and time overruns and are still paid for nonetheless, relative to having to pay massive taxes on dirty energy.

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#137
Whenever we talk about nuclear power on HN, people are split in two groups: those who'd love to see nuclear power succeeding, and those who are against it and who support solar and wind.

I am pro both nuclear and renewables.

Solar and wind have been on an absolute tear lately. At least in the US (where I live) new solar and wind construction has been growing at a breathtaking pace during the last decade.

Take a look at the latest data from the EIA [1]. For the last month available, July 2022, solar and wind generated together 45 Terawatts hour of electricity. Coal generated 86 TWh. But 3 months prior, solar/wind produced 60 TWh, while coal only 55.

To get an appreciation for how much solar and wind have grown over the last 2 decades, here's their July production every 5 years since 2002 (in TWh):

  2002: 1
  2007: 2
  2012: 7
  2017: 22
  2022: 45
Somewhere up there Moore is smiling.

Guys who are pro-solar and pro-wind: rejoice, you have won. Solar and wind have achieved escape velocity. If they keep it like that, we won't have any problems fully decarbonizing by 2050. We'll actually get there sooner. Without any help from nuclear. We won't even need batteries or hydrogen.

Few people know, but we could keep all the current natural gas plant and still achieve net zero (actually net negative). How is that possible, you ask?

Right now the forests absorb about 13% of the total emissions in the US [2]. Electricity generation contributes by 25% to the total emissions, and natural gas generates less than half of those. So overall, land and forestry absorb more greenhouse gases than those produced by the natural gas power plants.

If we increase solar and power, at some point we will need natural gas to only cover the intermittency. That means, even if we keep all the current natural gas plants, their usage will go down, and their emissions. If we cut all other sources of greenhouse gases (apart from aviation, which depends on energy dense fuels, and contributes quite little to the total emission), we will have no problems to achieve net zero by 2050, and very likely much sooner.

On the nuclear side, things are looking quite good too. Just head to the DoE infographic [3] and see how many cool ideas are in the works. My favorite ones are the fast reactors. But they are just vaporware, you say. In that case, head to the NRC webpage [4], and click on some links over there, and see that all of those ventures (and some more) have already started the licensing process.

Of course, none is as advanced as NuScale. But my point is that NuScale is not our only hope. Lots of other startups are hot on their tails.

My prediction is that 15 years from now, more than 1 of all these startups will have delivered reactors that will be selling electricity at a profit, without subsidies.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/

[2] https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis...

[3] https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/infographic-advanced-reac...

[4] https://www.nrc.gov/reactors/new-reactors/advanced/licensing...

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost is indeed the issue for commercial power generation. So let's look at costs. Especially, let's look at cost trends . My sources are: Lazard's 2022 levelized cost of energy estimates; NREL's Spring 2022 Solar Industry Update: the Global Wind Energy Council's Global Wind Report 2022 highlights; and especially the 2022 report in Cell (Cell's "Joule" sub-publication) called "Empirically Grounded Energy Forecasts and…

So what is supposed to replace all of these obsolete technologies that currently account for the vast majority of energy generation? Lithium batteries, solar power, and offshore wind power? There are so many problems with this scheme, not least of which is that you have pretty much no base load and batteries can't be manufactured at anywhere near enough scale to successfully do this "transition" for at least the next…

In the US, we already have about ~25% of power coming from nuclear and Hydro. That's a huge chunk of our base load.

Add in ~7% offshore wind, ~4% for onshore, and ~4% storage for pumped hydro, and we would be just fine with the rest coming from solar & a hodge podge of other renewables.

And we'll have natural gas power plants in commission for another 30 years. Why shut them down? We can use them in the Winter. 30 years is more than enough time to transition to near 100% renewables.

If mini nuclear reactors pan out and can replace even a fraction of the coal plants out there - our base load will be covered.

At night, in the winter, we use about half as much electricity as during the day in the summer - when Solar works best.

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#139
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My best guess is what Freeman Dyson said in his autobiography Disturbing the Universe : he stopped working on nuclear reactors after TRIGA (01958) and Project Orion (01957 to 01961) because it stopped being fun. It became a question of bureaucracy and national security and empire-building and whatnot. So people like Dyson, who learned calculus by spending his Christmas vacation working his way through a textbok for f…

But why do you prefix years with 0?

It’s an affectation relating to The Long Now.

https://longnow.org/

It’s, as I understand it, to draw attention to the briefness of our lives and contextualize the decisions we make that have effects long beyond “now”.

Personally, I think it’s kind of weird to base it upon the supposed birth year of a religious figure who may not have even lived, but standards are useful, I suppose.

Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy

#140
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our nations were far less wealthy when the existing stock of nuclear power plants were built, the technology available for building them have improved since then, and the raw resources needed as their inputs aren't a constraint, so why have costs risen so much relative to what we are willing to spend on it? Environmental and safety regulations are supposed to be explanations for this rise in cost, not rival explanati…

* Technology makes machines cheaper, and makes human work more expensive in comparison. Nuclear projects involve a lot of highly qualified human work. * Technology makes repetitive operations cheaper. You build a factory for hundred million dollars, make a billion gadgets on it, and every gadget costs you ten cents to make. Nuclear projects lack the economy of scale: even the Navy is going to order reactors by a doze…

Solar experience relentless experience effects, with cost dropping by about 20% for each doubling of cumulative production. Nuclear has not shown good experience effects.
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