Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can in theory decommission naval nuclear reactors by letting them sink to the bottom of the ocean in a terrible, sad accident from which fortunately all the sailors were safely rescued. I don't know that anybody has done this; often the sailors all died. But it seems that even without taking decommissioning into account, naval nuclear reactors are not cost-competitive with other power sources. Looking for "subsid…
You didn't read parts 1 and 2? You've had many chances since this propoganda is re-posted so frequently: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy (constructionphysics.substack.com) 104 points by gmays 5 hours ago | flag | past | 100 comments Why did we wait so long for wind power? Part I (constructionphysics.substack.com) 26 points by jseliger 9 days ago | flag | past | 4 comments…
Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
111–120 of 298 posts
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
Our nations were far less wealthy when the existing stock of nuclear power plants were built, the technology available for building them have improved since then, and the raw resources needed as their inputs aren't a constraint, so why have costs risen so much relative to what we are willing to spend on it? Environmental and safety regulations are supposed to be explanations for this rise in cost, not rival explanati…
- Nuclear power plants are rare enough that each project is basically unique. - Nuclear power plants are very complex. They are more "engineered" than "constructed", with hundreds of kilometers of tubes and wires. Pouring the concrete is the easy part. - Nuclear power plants deal with an incredibly dangerous environment: high pressures, high temperatures, radioactivity, hazardous chemicals. Everything has to be teste…
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#113Yes, cost is the issue. Everyone assumes that anyone hesitant about Nuclear power is focussed on the environmental or safety concerns, but that is wrong. The costs (and cost overruns) of the construction and maintenance of Nuclear reactors have been enough reason on their own to be bearish on Nuclear. I'm hopeful that new technologies, such as small nuclear reactions that can be built in a factory, will address this.
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
If by fail safe you mean that powering off the reactor makes it cool down then the Navy uses fail safe reactors. Water is used as the moderator to absorb radiation. When water is heated its density decreases (edit), thereby making it a less good moderator of radiation. This effect lowers reactor reactivity and heat output. This effect is combined with various devices to produce what is called an inherently safe desig…
Fail safe means that in a catastrophic failure of the reactor’s regulatory systems it stops functioning rather than overloads. Entropy trends it to not working rather than working too much - for example a gas furnace will stop burning if the systems running the furnace stop working and are unable to provide more gas to the burn chamber. Is that how Navy reactors work?
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
But the fact is that we did go years without building any, leading to nuclear power plants being more expensive. It is the path we chose (rightly or wrongly) and today solar and wind is cheaper in the western world. Even if continuing to invest in nuclear in the 1970s was the right choice, it may no longer be the case today that we have those. (see Path Dependence, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_dependence ) In m…
Nuclear runs constantly. Solar and wind don't. This is a significant problem. Storage is hard and inefficient. We don't currently have a viable complete renewable solution. Nuclear is much better for the planet than fossil fuels and is the only option to bridge the gap required to operate the current renewables.
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#116Yes, cost is the issue. Everyone assumes that anyone hesitant about Nuclear power is focussed on the environmental or safety concerns, but that is wrong. The costs (and cost overruns) of the construction and maintenance of Nuclear reactors have been enough reason on their own to be bearish on Nuclear. I'm hopeful that new technologies, such as small nuclear reactions that can be built in a factory, will address this.
Our nations were far less wealthy when the existing stock of nuclear power plants were built, the technology available for building them have improved since then, and the raw resources needed as their inputs aren't a constraint, so why have costs risen so much relative to what we are willing to spend on it? Environmental and safety regulations are supposed to be explanations for this rise in cost, not rival explanati…
So people like Dyson, who learned calculus by spending his Christmas vacation working his way through a textbok for fun, were no longer available to design reactors. So progress on, for example, thorium reactors ended in the US in 01966 (thorium BWR is from 01960, thorium LWBR is from 01962, thorium MSR is from 01964, thorium HTGR is from 01966). In other countries it took a few more years. Teller, who worked on TRIGA with Dyson, seems to have stopped working on reactor design in 01960. The elves left Middle Earth. So hospitals still use TRIGA today for nuclear medicine.
I don't see the key issue here as being that Dyson and Teller were brilliant, though they were brilliant. Rather, it's that Dyson and Teller were curious and playful. I think curious and playful people exploring the possibilities of nuclear reactors will come up with many improvements, even if they are the ordinary kind of stupid people. It might take them five times as long as it would have taken people like Dyson, and there might be more accidental deaths along the way, but they will get there. But today the occasional curious and playful person who tries to investigate nuclear reactors is likely to get arrested, even if they pose less risk to their neighbors than Marie Curie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Handl (or assassinated by the Mossad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Iranian_nucle...) and so the Navy is still using reactors very similar to the ones they used 60 years ago.
I see questions like "the technology available has improved, so why have costs risen?" as symptomatic of the worldview that anything can be bought. Teller, Dyson, and Handl were not optimizing their life decisions to maximize their earning power; they were curious about the world and wanted to preserve liberal democracy. You can't buy that. If you announce that you are going to spend a lot of money on nuclear reactor development, it will attract people who optimize their life decisions to maximize their earning power, not people who are curious about the world.
You maximize your earning power by owning things, not by learning things or figuring things out. People who optimize their life decisions to maximize their earning power will be no good at ferreting out possible improvements that can be made to nuclear reactors, because you don't get paid any more for making breakthroughs than you do for just plodding along.
Less, in fact, because nine tenths of the time when you're doing the kind of things that lead to breakthroughs, the things you try don't work, so you aren't delivering anything of value to anybody.
The other issue is that "Why can't we build nuclear power plants?" is a subset of "Why can't we build?" and I think the answer to that is basically that people aren't free to build. But nuclear power plants are probably the kind of building that people are least free to build.
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#117Quoted post unavailable.
Is this neural-network generated? The bio makes me think that it is, in fact, written by a machine: > Perhaps you'll think my comments are unthinkable. My only response to that is that they were legibly written, not by a machine, but by a writer with a soul.
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is an odd argument. You're basically saying that being more knowledgeable about something makes your opinion less useful. Everyone knows there's bias but if you're arguing that we shouldn't value someone's opinion because they're an expert then we're not going to progress very far in society. I'm not saying you have to take his word as divine truth but dismissing experts is extremely naive.
If you're knowledgeable in one field primarily, I think it's likely you have some bias towards that field. If you are doing a lot of research only in e.g. Solar, I think it'd be harder to provide an unbiased comparison between solar and nuclear than someone who studies power generation in general. EDIT: At a first glance, the linked article seems reasonable if not a bit optimistic for future developments and very pos…
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
You didn't read parts 1 and 2? You've had many chances since this propoganda is re-posted so frequently: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy (constructionphysics.substack.com) 104 points by gmays 5 hours ago | flag | past | 100 comments Why did we wait so long for wind power? Part I (constructionphysics.substack.com) 26 points by jseliger 9 days ago | flag | past | 4 comments…
Just fyi, that formatting is very hard to read.
Re: Why are nuclear power construction costs so high? Part III – the nuclear navy
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nuclear is not fundamentally expensive[0], and most nuclear power plants currently in operation were cheap when they were built. The high costs of building new powerplants is a result of going decades without building any, leading to a loss of experience. Even still, nuclear remains competitive with other traditional power generation technologies like coal. Only with recent advancements in fracking did natural gas su…
But the fact is that we did go years without building any, leading to nuclear power plants being more expensive. It is the path we chose (rightly or wrongly) and today solar and wind is cheaper in the western world. Even if continuing to invest in nuclear in the 1970s was the right choice, it may no longer be the case today that we have those. (see Path Dependence, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_dependence ) In m…
I’m afraid this is only true for the US, let’s not forget almost all of Europe is as north as Canada or north US.
In order to compare the cost we cannot just compare the price to install a certain capacity. You must also factor in how much extra capacity you need to build.
When we look at the Germany[1], on the best month, their solar produce half of the installed capacity and solar never goes higher than a third. And that’s for the best month.
Germany has already invested 600 billions, does it need to go 5 five folds ? Maybe less as the costs are decreasing.
It seems like that money invested in nuclear would produced much more and prevent spending what’s starting to look like an entire gdp invested into renewables.