Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B • Hacker News Board

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#111

Post by adrienthebo » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:04 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #90

adrienthebo wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having people educated, healthy, and protected from the damages of homelessness all have positive externalities. Paying people to return to areas that are regularly ravaged by massive storms only benefits them until the next storm and doesn't represent a long term good, especially in the face of climate change.

Shall we apply this moral rule globally then? Say goodbye to Pakistan. I'd love to see the HN crowd that is championing the premise stand up and proclaim all the areas of the globe that people should no longer be allowed to live, huge swaths of which will be in hyper impoverished areas of India, China, Pakistan. They won't dare.

The Pakistan floods were due to massive rainfall exacerbating glacial melt, both of which were triggered by climate change. Pakistan is responsible for fewer than 1% of global emissions and experienced catastrophic flooding anyways. It's an incredibly poor nation that got the short end of the climate change stick. The level of sorrow that Florida pales in comparison to that of Pakistan; I'd argue that Pakistan warrants $100B as much as Florida does (if not more).

Admittedly there's also grinding poverty in parts of Florida so I appreciate the comparison; that's a good hole in my argument.

Should we provide compensation for Floridians to move to safer areas? Yes.

Should we provide compensation for Pakistan for improved flood management? Yes.

Should Pakistanis or Floridians rebuild in the exact same places and the same ways where they've been building? No, unfortunately nobody gets that luxury. That's the horrible thing about climate change - we have very few options and they all have major downsides but we don't get to opt out. Florida's going to experience massive flooding regularly and Pakistan will face the same, and either populations in both areas adapt in some fashion (build for floods or move) or continue to experience mass devastation when the inevitable occurs.

I don't get to dictate where people live any more than I get to dictate where the flood waters go. It's heartbreaking but that's the world we're stuck in.

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#112

Post by wellthatsawrap1 » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:05 PM UTC

jliptzin wrote: post #15

ericd wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know COVID stimulus has numbed people to large numbers, but $100B is a huge amount of money. It's two million people working for a year at $50k salary

They’re gonna need a lot of cheap labor to rebuild. Maybe they should charter a flight to bring some immigrants from Martha’s Vineyard

Or not send 80B to Ukraine

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#113

Post by seandoe » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:05 PM UTC

shmatt wrote: post #67

sokoloff wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the conclusion that housing should not be built where Sandy’s damages occurred? That seems... unreasonable .

Like anything non-hurricane related, either find a private insurer you can afford, or risk being uninsured and losing everything you own

This. I'm not sure why it works any other way. If the location is somehow critical to the local/regional/national interest than those entities can subsidize the insurance cost. But the free market should handle the situation. If people want to live somewhere that's fine. If it's too risky to insure, than they are on their own.

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#114

Post by cycrutchfield » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:06 PM UTC

throwaway-blaze wrote: post #108

cpurdy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, 1000x this. It is frustrating to be sending piles of money to these states every year, which they then waste on political stunts like flying legal immigrants to other states, instead of taking care of their citizens, or maybe investing in climate hardening. And then they're completely unprepared for cold weather, hot weather, wet weather, dry weather, ... and say things like "Nobody knew ___ could be so complica…

Legal immigrants? The feds flew or bused illegal border crossers who were processed and released to many states, including Florida. Yes it was a political stunt to move them again, but how is it worse than what the feds are doing?

They are asylum seekers, what is illegal about that?

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#115

Post by dougmwne » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:08 PM UTC

ClassicOrgin wrote: post #95

snarf21 wrote: post #4

I can only assume it will go higher. We need to push FEMA to have a 2 and done rule. After that the property must be returned back to dunes/parks/public spaces.

I was looking to move to Fort Myers or Fort Myers Shores with my girlfriend (she’s originally from there), and we looked at five different houses. Based on damage maps/satellite photos/Facebook posts all five of those houses were flooded. But, the problem is only two of them were in any sort of flood zones. The only reason we didn’t buy is because it looked like the market was tanking. I think there is a lot of blami…

Well that’s lucky, otherwise you might have ended up underwater on your loan.

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#116

Post by bigmattystyles » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:08 PM UTC

throwaway-blaze wrote: post #108

cpurdy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, 1000x this. It is frustrating to be sending piles of money to these states every year, which they then waste on political stunts like flying legal immigrants to other states, instead of taking care of their citizens, or maybe investing in climate hardening. And then they're completely unprepared for cold weather, hot weather, wet weather, dry weather, ... and say things like "Nobody knew ___ could be so complica…

Legal immigrants? The feds flew or bused illegal border crossers who were processed and released to many states, including Florida. Yes it was a political stunt to move them again, but how is it worse than what the feds are doing?

No they were lawful asylum seekers.

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#117

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:08 PM UTC

notch656a wrote: post #91

cpurdy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, 1000x this. It is frustrating to be sending piles of money to these states every year, which they then waste on political stunts like flying legal immigrants to other states, instead of taking care of their citizens, or maybe investing in climate hardening. And then they're completely unprepared for cold weather, hot weather, wet weather, dry weather, ... and say things like "Nobody knew ___ could be so complica…

Florida is pretty low on federally funding dependency ranking.

I do not see how that could be just from all the old people receiving social security/Medicare benefits.

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#118

Post by bradgessler » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

cpurdy wrote: post #49

snarf21 wrote: post #4

I can only assume it will go higher. We need to push FEMA to have a 2 and done rule. After that the property must be returned back to dunes/parks/public spaces.

Yes, 1000x this. It is frustrating to be sending piles of money to these states every year, which they then waste on political stunts like flying legal immigrants to other states, instead of taking care of their citizens, or maybe investing in climate hardening. And then they're completely unprepared for cold weather, hot weather, wet weather, dry weather, ... and say things like "Nobody knew ___ could be so complica…

The reason people live in coastal regions is because there are outsized economic benefits to the hinterlands that may outweigh the damage these storms inflict. The interface between land and sea is crucially important for the survival of civilization at our scale.

Under "2 and done", do you restore critical port infrastructure to dunes if they get destroyed by a hurricane twice? Port infrastructure can't exist on its own, it needs a community behind it which needs schools, parks, houses, etc.

This is a problem that the insurance industry will need figure out so they can price risk to the area that's wiped out, the way the home is constructed, etc.

In my mind the debate is how FEMA subsidies will distort the insurance markets. Perhaps they could serve as a "2 and done" re-re-insurance provider?

A great counterpoint to this argument is that an insurance oligopoly might "price gouge" after a big event like Ian, which could kill the community that's needed to support the vital port infrastructure. Ultimately if FEMA subsidies were removed from the picture, shipping costs would increase to price in the risk of hurricanes for the area. Either way we're all paying for it somehow.

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#119

Post by mannykannot » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

ClassicOrgin wrote: post #95

snarf21 wrote: post #4

I can only assume it will go higher. We need to push FEMA to have a 2 and done rule. After that the property must be returned back to dunes/parks/public spaces.

I was looking to move to Fort Myers or Fort Myers Shores with my girlfriend (she’s originally from there), and we looked at five different houses. Based on damage maps/satellite photos/Facebook posts all five of those houses were flooded. But, the problem is only two of them were in any sort of flood zones. The only reason we didn’t buy is because it looked like the market was tanking. I think there is a lot of blami…

There is a lot of political pressure from the owners and sellers of property, among other interests, to minimize the information.

In NYC, after Sandy, a new map with vastly expanded zones was published. Within a day or two, it was replaced with one with significantly reduced zones. I don't know that this was in response to political pressure...

Re: Hurricane Ian damages in Southeast estimated at $100B to $120B

#120

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Sep 30, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

PM_me_your_math wrote: post #60

snarf21 wrote: post #4

I can only assume it will go higher. We need to push FEMA to have a 2 and done rule. After that the property must be returned back to dunes/parks/public spaces.

I must say that is a terrible idea. Should parts of CA or other earthquake prone areas be labelled uninhabitable? What about areas where forest fires are routine? Flood prone areas? Tornado prone areas? High UV? Poor air quality? It makes no sense whatsoever to dictate that people cannot live on the coasts due to natural disasters which happen everywhere, all the time. Frankly, being told where to live is more garish…

If earthquakes strong enough to destroy many buildings happen in the same location every five or 10 years, then yes, that area should be considered uninhabitable.