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Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

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Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#261

Post by coldtea »

p1necone wrote: post #249
Underphil wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What AAA games would even run on an M1?

Basically all AAA games will run relatively smoothly (30-60fps) with low-midrange dedicated gpus which is effectively what the M1 performs like on paper (I think it's in the ballpark of the NVidia 1050/1050ti/1650). You just have to lower the settings and resolution to get that smooth performance - think base model last gen console/nintendo switch levels of visual fidelity rather than up to date gaming pc/current gen…

>Basically all AAA games will run relatively smoothly

I think the parent's point is "what AAA games would run on the M1, even if they finish GPU support, given that we're talking about ARM Linux?"

Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#263

Post by makeitdouble »

amelius wrote: post #260
Rygian wrote: post #39

"Please temper your expectations: even with hardware documentation, an optimized Vulkan driver stack (with enough features to layer OpenGL 4.6 with Zink) requires many years of full time work. At least for now, nobody is working on this driver full time3. Reverse-engineering slows the process considerably. We won’t be playing AAA games any time soon." From https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-6.html

Why doesn't Apple release the documentation? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to have Linux? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to help?

Trying to take a non cynical take: at a business level Apple's hardware business was growing while other makers were having a hard time, and I think with their current advancement in processor tech and sheer production quality, they have captured most of the market they were probably expecting to capture.

At this point, trying to expand the user base through sheer hardware improvement or trying to include fringe groups (windows dual boot users, linux user) probably has diminishing returns.

In contrast, service revenue, app revenue and accessories like air pods, the Apple Watch have a much better ROI.

What I'm coming at: they have little incentive to work hard to expand the user base, and a better ROI on expanding revenue from users of their software platform. So I'm not holding my breath on Apple actively helping for windows or linux support anytime soon.

Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#264

Post by shmerl »

amelius wrote: post #260
Rygian wrote: post #39

"Please temper your expectations: even with hardware documentation, an optimized Vulkan driver stack (with enough features to layer OpenGL 4.6 with Zink) requires many years of full time work. At least for now, nobody is working on this driver full time3. Reverse-engineering slows the process considerably. We won’t be playing AAA games any time soon." From https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-6.html

Why doesn't Apple release the documentation? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to have Linux? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to help?

They are one of the worst lock-in minded companies. Making their hardware as closed as possible fits that.

Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#265

Post by Someone »

amelius wrote: post #260
Rygian wrote: post #39

"Please temper your expectations: even with hardware documentation, an optimized Vulkan driver stack (with enough features to layer OpenGL 4.6 with Zink) requires many years of full time work. At least for now, nobody is working on this driver full time3. Reverse-engineering slows the process considerably. We won’t be playing AAA games any time soon." From https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-6.html

Why doesn't Apple release the documentation? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to have Linux? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to help?

The documentation they have may not be complete or in a form they are willing to release (e.g. because it mentions future products)

They also may be reluctant to release it because of fear of litigation. They may do something that’s patented, similar to a patent, or deemed patented by someone else, and releasing documentation makes it easier for others to find such cases.

Also, in the end, there’s dollars. Even the simplest process to release documentation costs money (and theirs wouldn’t be the simplest for the reasons mentioned above). They may think there’s not enough money or reputation gain in it for them to do this (and for reputation gain, they would have to keep doing it)

Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#266

Post by [deleted] »

Someone wrote: post #265
amelius wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't Apple release the documentation? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to have Linux? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to help?

The documentation they have may not be complete or in a form they are willing to release (e.g. because it mentions future products) They also may be reluctant to release it because of fear of litigation. They may do something that’s patented, similar to a patent, or deemed patented by someone else, and releasing documentation makes it easier for others to find such cases. Also, in the end, there’s dollars. Even the s…

[deleted]

Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#267

Post by amelius »

makeitdouble wrote: post #263
amelius wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't Apple release the documentation? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to have Linux? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to help?

Trying to take a non cynical take: at a business level Apple's hardware business was growing while other makers were having a hard time, and I think with their current advancement in processor tech and sheer production quality, they have captured most of the market they were probably expecting to capture. At this point, trying to expand the user base through sheer hardware improvement or trying to include fringe grou…

So what you are saying is that engineers at Apple have nothing to say about this?

Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#268

Post by bni »

I don't get all the griping about "Wasted development effort" and "Apple doesn't have documentation".

Linux was about making it work on different platforms from the very beginning. There was never any vendor support.

Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#269

Post by madeofpalk »

amelius wrote: post #260
Rygian wrote: post #39

"Please temper your expectations: even with hardware documentation, an optimized Vulkan driver stack (with enough features to layer OpenGL 4.6 with Zink) requires many years of full time work. At least for now, nobody is working on this driver full time3. Reverse-engineering slows the process considerably. We won’t be playing AAA games any time soon." From https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-6.html

Why doesn't Apple release the documentation? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to have Linux? Isn't there anyone inside Apple who wants to help?

Apple barely releases documentation for their SDKs they expect developers to use.

Re: Native Linux GPU Driver for Apple M1

#270

Post by malermeister »

imiric wrote: post #207
bityard wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally non-sarcastic question: then why bother? It's an honest question. Even if someone (or a team) could somehow be paid for this work, by the time the results are usable, the hardware will be more or less functionally obsolete. And that is on top of the fact that ARM64 on MacOS will always be a small slice of the gaming pie, and ARM64 on Linux games and GPU applications virtually nonexistent.

> why bother? I wonder the same thing, but from an ideological perspective. Why should the free software community promote Apple hardware by making it more accessible to OSS enthusiasts, when Apple only cares about OSS when it directly benefits them? Apple makes great hardware, but they're actively hostile to everything free software stands for. If Apple cared about this user base, they would work on this themselves.…

Right now, Apple makes arguably the best laptop hardware on the market thanks to its chipset.

Why should you be forced to choose between non-free software and subpar hardware?

Why not liberate the hardware?

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