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Google is shutting down Stadia

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Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google needs to restructure their incentives before it wrecks the company. I have no doubt whoever launched Stadia got promoted and then bounced to a different product and didn't care about whether Stadia was a success long term. Google's ad money printer masks the rot underneath, Google is literally a meme at this point for shutting down products. No serious business or developer is going to trust them. If governmen…

The thing that baffles me is that this has been a known issue for a long time, and yet there doesn't seem to be any significant moves to improve this. Can someone please explain what Sundar Pichai's big goals as a CEO are? That's a genuine question. He doesn't seem to be solving existing issues related to culture and incentives. And the company hasn't landed any big wins recently. I mostly see increased monetization…

> Can someone please explain what Sundar Pichai's big goals as a CEO are? That's a genuine question

YoY only.

Tim Cook seems to be heading the same way, trashing the quality of almost everything Apple has achieved for the sake of financial results.

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#922

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google needs to restructure their incentives before it wrecks the company. I have no doubt whoever launched Stadia got promoted and then bounced to a different product and didn't care about whether Stadia was a success long term. Google's ad money printer masks the rot underneath, Google is literally a meme at this point for shutting down products. No serious business or developer is going to trust them. If governmen…

I was at Google 2014-2018. It appeared that Larry & Sergey didn't understand incentives, despite otherwise being very smart guys. They just didn't seem to get it. At all. There were lots of smart, motivated people but the incentive structure was completely set up to reward launching products and moving on. Some of the Stadia folks were insanely good at playing the promo game. There was talk about the need to "land" r…

I was at Google 2009-2014 and again from 2020-present. Larry and Sergey absolutely understand incentives - one of the things that stood out about early Google (pre-2005) was just how well they understood incentives, and they were able to build basically an unassailable $250B/year business based on it.

It wasn't just Larry & Sergey either - early Google was filled with people like Craig Silverstein, Amit Patel, Paul Buchheit, Eric Veach, Matt Cutts, Peter Norvig, Hal Varian, et al who all thought deeply about just what the human consequences of a given social policy would be. Things like Google's promo & interview system were very well-designed for a company of 2000 people.

IMHO, the problem is that all of those folks ended up richer than you could imagine, which gave them the option of not putting up with the people that came after them. When the company grows from 2000 to 20,000 (which is what it was when I joined in 2009), 90+% of the people were not when it was 2000, i.e. you are outvoted 9 to 1 by ordinary people who don't think very much about incentives. If you're filthy rich, it's much easier to just jet off to some private island and let the tricky problem of incentives become somebody else's problem than it is to stick around and explain to tens of thousands of people why systems are the way they and modify them to fit the company's new reality.

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is keeping me from looking seriously at Flutter tbh. Go is safe, it has a community and ecosystem outside of Google, Flutter doesn't seem to be there yet.

(Disclosure: I lead PM/UX for Flutter & Dart.) For sure, anything that I could say along the lines of "we're not shutting Flutter down" might be taken as having overtones of the Baghdad Bob meme. And indeed, why should you trust my word? The reason you should feel confident to use Flutter is because it's strongly in our business interest to invest in it. Over 600,000 apps in the Play Store alone are already written u…

I use Flutter every day...your team needs to be more transparent. Tangible answers and numbers, "Happy developers are a prerequisite for a wide variety of other Google APIs and services", is great, but those services and APIs have a variety of other entry points not using Flutter, they don't depend on it.

How is Flutter funded? It was said a few years ago the budget came from internal projects like ads, fuchsia, pay, and stadia, does stadia being killed effect the Flutter budget? There was an implication at that time that if they all died or left Flutter then it would be killed via budget cuts, is that true? Why is Flutter not being adopted by Google for more outward facing apps? Is it seen internally as at risk of abandonment?

"600,000 apps in the Play Store alone", how many of these are commercial vs hobby projects, does Google really care about these if enterprise adoption is minimal? Delving into game dev when iOS is not polished seemed like a decision made because there was a need to show potential value via expansion upward in the org, I was concerned this was a hail mary when announced, and with Stadia now gone the timing seems more suspect.

"It has a developer base of several million", how many of these are again hobby users, how many use it weekly / monthly? Flutter has a large DevRel push, how many of these projects / users are students who just spin it up once and hit star on GH when asked and never touch it again? Your team was asked approximately this question by a MSFT employee looking at publishing info on cross platform framework adoption vs native and could not get a straight answer I was told.

Multiple Flutter related posts by agencies and evangelists point to a google trends page or GH stars saying Flutter is blowing up in popularity compared to other frameworks, but when you start looking at core packages searched for and starred for each framework the Flutter trend reverses, is this because the words Flutter and Dart are too common and in actuality the popularity is not what is being projected in trends? Is this because DevRels directly ask people to star the core project? I ask Flutter GDE's these questions and they come off like they can't be trusted to be honest on these topics for fear of losing status. I have also heard a certain outspoken Flutter GDE mention on stream other frameworks have much larger communities, how can this jive with these purported trends?

It seems as though the community size and growth of Flutter is projected to be greater than it is, that's subjectively how it feels as a dev as well I will note as someone who is using packages / repos, and that is worrisome. I worry that the first time we hear solid numbers will be in a blog post about the Flutter project ending with an explanation that low enterprise adoption and direct or indirect revenue could not support the scale of this ambitious a project. It would be great to hear some hard facts that give people confidence in adoption and that Flutter has long term backing higher in the company. If this is not the case, honesty would be nice as well.

@a14n seems to have tailed off on his work on Flutter quite a bit, which worries me if he is the core example of users who would pick this up in an OSS abandonment situation. Even now it feels as though if major OSS package maintainers like Remi Rousselet walked away the community would be hit hard. I can't imagine the project continuing without Google, especially with Dart needing the same treatment if Flutter was killed. Dart issues with notes saying the team lacks bandwidth exist now, I just can't see it working even with some other companies interested, Flutter/Dart need full enterprise backing at this stage.

"which is using the new engine on iOS" - An aside... I downloaded the app, it seems pretty smooth, not sure the FPS but I saw minimal jank which is great. BUT, it still has the biggest complaint I hear about Flutter apps on iOS, feel. On iOS is does not feel native, the scrolling and gestures feel off. This is part of what I was referring to regarding ignoring polish on iOS in favor of expansion earlier, iOS still feels second class on Flutter. I have watched a friend delete a flutter app from their phone right after installing with the reasoning "I hate when apps feel like that, it's so obnoxious", these people exist, they feel Flutter apps are second class, this sentiment will 100% drive away enterprise adoption imho. Even recently a user on the flutterdev subreddit said they were leaving Flutter behind just do to this persistent user feedback.

My final thought is the same as my first, be more transparent, show the community with tangible honest numbers and backing Flutter is not in jeopardy, otherwise the track record (and imho vague mushy pumped up stats) makes it appear it is.

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#924
Google required game studios to adapt their games to a specific Linux engine, which is an extra cost for companies and doesn't make sense if there is little audience on a platform... No games -> no audience

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#925
post #608

Unfortunately this doesn't surprise me. We worked on a Stadia title before launch. We were constantly reminded by Google how big the YouTube integration would be, which unique killer features we absolutely had to integrate with, and more. And non of that ever materialized after launch. If Google can't even convince their own internal teams to cooperate, how do they expect studios and consumers to care the slightest f…

> a streaming service's devkits couldn't stream

That is just mind boggling - how on earth were you meant to test anything properly?

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#926

Everybody is talking about how terrible Google and their culture is, so I'll just put it out there that this is great news for gamers. Cloud-based gaming services are a terrible deal for gamers. Gamers shouldn't cede so much control to some 3rd party who will be watching over their shoulder and collecting every scrap of data on them and their friends while they play. We don't need our performance in games being used…

> When I fire up a single player PC game nobody is logging the days I play, or how many hours that I play to draw inferences about my life and responsibilities.

If you're playing through Steam, Origin, Epic, or even GoG's launcher then yes those two things are being recorded. Unless your PC is totally air gapped it will definitely be sending that kind of telemetry back to the mothership.

> With very few exceptions, the games I play on my computer can't be remotely censored or modified against my will

That's not really true if you've purchased a digital copy of a game (unless it's from GoG I suppose). You're buying a license that can be changed or revoked for any number of reasons, and the actual content you're given can be changed at any time.

Left 4 Dead 2 in Australia is an example of this; for the first ~5 years of its life Australia had a censored "low violence" version of the game thanks to our pearl clutching regulators.

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#927
post #25

At what point does working for Google (on anything released after 2008) go from being prestigious to embarrassing?

Why are so many of you here so bitter against this company?

I imagine everyone here has had at least one beloved service end up on this list - https://killedbygoogle.com

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree with you, but I downvoted your comment because > We devoted an entire month of resources to this project and thought that was enough! ...is not just wildly inaccurate, but also disrespectful to the people who spent years working on it.

Imagine you go to work at Baby Mulching LLC. This company has existed for two decades, and is dedicated to dropping infants into industrial shredders. Everyone hates Baby Mulching LLC, and they're an enormous black stain on your resume, because there is one single thing they do, and it's grind up children. On your first day, you're asked to design a big toothed wheel. You ask your boss, will this be used to mulch bab…

I'm still not really sure what the moral of this parable is, but thanks for the most enjoyable read I've seen here all week, lol.

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#929
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of a conundrum: every company is going to shut down products. What's the best way to launch new, risky things? Startups can simply go all in on the product, and if it fails, the company dissolves, though people rightly are hesitant to go with a fly by night startup for exactly that reason. I'm not even sure that Google has shut down more products than an equivalently sized company. But it's certainly shut…

> I'm not even sure that Google has shut down more products than an equivalently sized company. AWS has shut down I believe only one service in its entire existence (SDB). And only when they had a viable alternative (DynamoDB) and helped their biggest users make the move. I can't recall any Apple service that has been shut down without an alternative. They've certainly cancelled hardware programs, but that doesn't br…

Did they ever actually shut down SimpleDB? Last I checked, it was still online, although maybe they stop most accounts from creating new tables now.

Re: Google is shutting down Stadia

#930
post #25

At what point does working for Google (on anything released after 2008) go from being prestigious to embarrassing?

Still top on http://prestigehunt.com !

Didn't know about this website. Rankings results are interesting. Thanks for sharing!
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