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Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

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Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#331

Post by yakak »

mrtksn wrote: post #157
scifibestfi wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people are fed up with dangerously incompetent leadership, who literally laughed when warned to not be dependent on Russia for energy. It's not a meaningless culture war. The loss of energy means lower standard of living at best and mass death and famine at worst.

The solution is not obvious, it's obvious only to zealots. It's kind of obvious that the solution is in PHV and wind energy but you can fight it to death with people who would claim that it's obvious that the solution is Nuclear energy. This is not a good discussion, this is fanatics fighting. Anytime someone suggest simple solution to a big problem %99.9 of the time they don't actually have a simple and obvious solu…

Europe's gas problem is entirely theoretical and goes away if any part of Russia exists and wants to be part of society at the end of the winter, or if 2 in 3 Europeans can follow simple directions to not be selfish and dead.

I find it tiring that any country that plays chicken with the superpowers gets all these warnings and abuse while the superpowers themselves do not give a crap who does what to undo their progress to Armageddon.

Germany was right to give Russia an option not to suck, the idea that Russia would not already suck worse by now and yet still be a military superpower if Germany didn't try to keep a vague semblance of balance in economics is a fantasy.

Is it seriously believable that Russia would have done nothing with violence by now to force changes in the economics if the west was shunning its natural resources for strategic reasons since the 1990's?

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#332

Post by blablabla123 »

Amezarak wrote: post #299
blablabla123 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I think Smartgrids and all technology close-by including usage counters would really make a difference. No matter if you're for renewables or even Nuclear. Considering how much energy goes to waste because of inefficient usage. Every 60W laptop has an elaborate power management but multi kW homes aren't even close. Still that's just one building block obviously...

Increasing complexity decreases resiliency and reliability.

But one part of Smart grids is just measuring everything. Another part is decentralization which actually increases resiliency. In a positive light it's probably a bit like Internet vs. telephone network. Higher complexity but the tools are there to make it work

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#333

Post by chimen »

m348e912 wrote: post #82
ajross wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's upsetting that so many here want to take a genuine (and very scary) international crisis and use it to flog their own personal peeves. Needless to say, "German energy policy of the last two decades" and "Let's Invade Ukraine and Blackmail Europe!" are different decisions , and subject to different analysis. You can have reasonable opinions about both, but if your opposition to Russian adventurism and brinksmansh…

Honest question. How did you get to the logical conclusion that Russia is the most likely party that bombed Nordstream?

I would say Ukraine destroyed it. They are, at this moment, the only ones with a benefit in having Europe unable to received Russian gas any more. It's either Ukraine or the US which has popcorn in the microwave at this war by proxy which bleeds Russia of resources down to nothing. My 2c

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#334

Post by hef19898 »

mantas wrote: post #310
hef19898 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get that idea from? Without looking it up, I suspect Germany, as a NATO country, helped Ukraine as other NATO allies did. And supported the orange revolution, as the other EU nations did before 2014.

Germany (along with France and others) supplied military-related stuff to Russia, even after 2014.

Under contracts signed before 2014. Seems like a detail worth mentioning.

EDIT: Which is bad reason, but at least an understandable when it comes to foreign policy. And it is not that arms exports are actually hindered by morals, all the exports to Saudi, UAE, Mexico and every other crisis region show otherwise. Personally, I think the West shouldn't export to those countries or conflict zones. The West also needs the industrial base to maintain reasonably strong militaries so, and with defense spending being a less than popular thing after the Cold War ended, exports are necessary for that. This could change so, and already did in Germany with additional military spending.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#335

Post by avgcorrection »

hef19898 wrote: post #329
avgcorrection wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm? Could you be more coy and less direct in your replies, please? Did Russia transform from a cosmopolitan, Western European-loving, tolerant nation with fantastic relations to the EU overnight into a savage brute in Feb 2022? Or was it always at least a little bit backwards, clearly not democratic, sphere of influence-envious, and had already arguably been at indirect war with Ukraine since 2014 ? To claim that Ge…

Since Europe has not enough natural resources to be self reliant, and the US only has enough oil gas due to fracking, there is no alternative other than dealing with oppressive, human rights ignoring regimes. Iran is under sanctions, the UAE and Saudi are by no means better the Putin at his worst days (we in the West just don't give a damn about the war in Sudan and Yemen). And yes, closer relationships to Russia are…

That’s better. Thanks.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#336

Post by 5560675260 »

avgcorrection wrote: post #315
gambiting wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying to scare EU/NATO to back off or a country of 50 million people will go without gas this winter isn't a rational theory? Seems like a very clear thing to threaten in this situation. >>Hence the obvious question: why would one theory be more likely than any other? Well, I mean, some theories are obviously more likely than others - it's more likely that Russia blew it up than that Japan blew it up, right?

No, it isn’t a rational theory. Because the only elaboration you have given is that you are a worried Polish person. Putin has already given quite brazen warnings like “remember that we have nukes”. And yet he would covertly sabotage Russia’s own pipeline? What kind of a limp-wristed warning is that? > Well, I mean, some theories are obviously more likely than others - it's more likely that Russia blew it up than tha…

Reminding about nukes doesn't work. The only outcome is being reminded by US that Russia will not survive consequences of using them. Nobody takes that as a serious treat.

Now pipes being blown up in a somewhat deniable way is treat, because that's something that can realistically happen without Moscow being nuked in the process.

Russia being a culprit here is so unthinkable for you probably because you vastly overestimate value of pipelines being affected. NS2 was never going to deliver gas, NS1 was turned off, likely forever. And hey, Yamal is still there, unaffected, if Russia actually will want to sell anything to Europe instead of China.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#337

Post by Maursault »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #271
ch4s3 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’d definitely made the right decision for yourself, and possibly in the general case. I’d add that while the bursts of hawkishness in US foreign policy are awful, they pale in comparison to the barbarism of other past powers or modern regional powers. That isn’t meant to excuse anything, but look at the Russian invasion and the intentional atrocities being committed. Compare that to the invasion of Iraq and I thin…

I cannot see how one can claim that the US invasion of Iraq was less barbaric than the Russian invasion of the Ukraine. First of all, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died. The US practiced torture, as we all found out when the pictures of Abu Ghraib came out. The US worked with Shiite militias that conducted ethnic cleansing and torture on a massive scale. The US put down uprisings in places like Sadr City, Najaf and…

> I cannot see how one can claim that the US invasion of Iraq was less barbaric than the Russian invasion of the Ukraine. First of all, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died.

>> Estimates of the total number of Iraqi war-related deaths are highly disputed. According to Keith Krause of the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, Geneva, Switzerland, "the consensus seems to be that around 150,000 people died violently as a result of the fighting between 2003 and 2006."[1]

I am in no way attempting to justify or defend the Iraq War, which I and many believe was both illegal and a Republican political gambit to stay in power by heartlessly leveraging outrage from the 9/11 attacks. I think one can make the argument that both the wars in Iraq and Ukraine were invalidly justified using manufactured and outright false intelligence. But while yours and other comments above are searing, astute and poignant, in essence both it and previous opposing and supporting comments are tu quoque arguments.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Tot...

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#338

Post by gambiting »

avgcorrection wrote: post #308
gambiting wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, those pipes were clearly not going to be used anytime soon. It's not like they blew up anything that was actively making them any money, nor did they sacrefice their own troops to do this like you compare to. It's a good target because it sends a message but it's pretty useless otherwise.

Compare it to blowing up a ghost town near Finland, then. No one would be scared of a military managing to destroy something on their own soil. In fact, a better theory for you would be to claim that Russia did it in order to make it look like sabotage from the EU/America. Just a propaganda exercise since the pipeline is “useless” to them right now in any case. But you are clearly so desperate that you just go for th…

>> But you are clearly so desperate that you just go for the first cartoonish theory that you can come up with.

That is very uncalled for. I really feel like this is a direct threat to Poland, but obviously I'm talking about it from a perspective of a Pole. Maybe if you live elsewhere you just don't feel that way - but I don't see any reason to describe this theory as "cartoonish".

>>No one would be scared of a military managing to destroy something on their own soil.

Yeah, except that pipeline wasn't destroyed on Russia's own soil, was it?

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#339

Post by CapricornNoble »

ben_w wrote: post #305
Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with scapegoating, the US military literally attacked european infrastructure this week

Really? Where?

It was almost certainly a state actor behind the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines recently. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/another-nord-stream-l...

A former Polish Minister of Defense posted "Thankyou USA" to Twitter after the attack. Various US officials have made public statements since the start of 2022 stating the US wouldn't allow Nord Stream to go forward. The whole reason the pipelines were built was for Russia to cut out the Ukrainian/Polish middlemen (transit fees) involved in selling gas to Germany, so the Russians don't have any incentive to blow up their own pipeline.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#340

Post by megous »

hef19898 wrote: post #288
megous wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans would have happily helped train Russian military if 2014 did not happen. Money's good.

Where did you get that idea from? Without looking it up, I suspect Germany, as a NATO country, helped Ukraine as other NATO allies did. And supported the orange revolution, as the other EU nations did before 2014.

https://www.dw.com/en/rheinmetall-poised-to-honor-military-d...
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