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Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

reuters.com

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Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#201

Post by ch4s3 »

cinntaile wrote: post #177
ch4s3 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also proactively chose in the wake of the 2003 invasion of Iraq to avoid importing more natural from the US. Schroeder and co wanted to reconnect Western Europe to Russia and avoid any dependence on the U.S. I think we now all see who the more reliable partner for Western Europe has been. [edit] if you’re going to disagree, I’d be interested to hear your specific objections. The shift away from US natural gas is…

LNG is more expensive than Russian gas so it makes or made economic sense to do that.

Does it make sense now that the pipeline is shut down and Russia is in conflict indirectly with Western Europe?

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#202

Post by ramesh31 »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #181
ch4s3 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also proactively chose in the wake of the 2003 invasion of Iraq to avoid importing more natural from the US. Schroeder and co wanted to reconnect Western Europe to Russia and avoid any dependence on the U.S. I think we now all see who the more reliable partner for Western Europe has been. [edit] if you’re going to disagree, I’d be interested to hear your specific objections. The shift away from US natural gas is…

The difference is that when the US invaded Iraq, Germany complained a bit but didn't do much else, but when Russia invaded the Ukraine, Germany decided to cut Russia off economically. The reason why the US is a "reliable partner" is that German politics is willing to accept American wars. And before we hear any cries of, "Iraq was different," recall that it was an illegal war of aggression that caused the deaths of h…

>And before we hear any cries of, "Iraq was different," recall that it was an illegal war of aggression that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, led to large scale torture, and generally caused a monumental societal collapse in Iraq.

I've been trying to come to terms with this since the invasion of Ukraine. Yes, the details on the ground are significantly different. But it doesn't change the legal reality of what occurred. I've come to the same conclusion about Iraq recently.

I was an 18 year old US Army infantryman getting ready to deploy to Iraq in 2007. I made the decision back then to not go, because ultimately something just felt completely wrong about it during training. The guilt around that had haunted me ever since. It wasn't until this year that I understood clearly what I did was the right decision, and felt vindicated. The entire last 20 years, our country has been engaged in global terrorism led by the neo-con hawks like Rove, Rumsfeld, and Bolton. It's sickening to truly realize and accept the horrible things we did, but I am forever grateful for having refused to take part.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#203

Post by hnhg »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #181
ch4s3 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also proactively chose in the wake of the 2003 invasion of Iraq to avoid importing more natural from the US. Schroeder and co wanted to reconnect Western Europe to Russia and avoid any dependence on the U.S. I think we now all see who the more reliable partner for Western Europe has been. [edit] if you’re going to disagree, I’d be interested to hear your specific objections. The shift away from US natural gas is…

The difference is that when the US invaded Iraq, Germany complained a bit but didn't do much else, but when Russia invaded the Ukraine, Germany decided to cut Russia off economically. The reason why the US is a "reliable partner" is that German politics is willing to accept American wars. And before we hear any cries of, "Iraq was different," recall that it was an illegal war of aggression that caused the deaths of h…

I'd add to the list: indirectly creating ISIS, enabling an enormous amounts of ethnic cleaning/genocide of minorities, allowing a takeover of the country by Iran and related militias, and hosing down the place with depleted uranium: https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2019/09/21/new-study-do...

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#204

Post by jlmorton »

scifibestfi wrote: post #149
mrtksn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This place started to think in memes I feel. Every issue comes with the automated arguments, the same ones every time. If the topic is energy someone must write the "they shouldn't have closed those Nuclear power plants, silly environmentalist". Anyway, France is full blown nuclear state and they are having energy issues too, because as it turns out nuclear power plants require long regular maintenance periods. Maybe…

The people are fed up with dangerously incompetent leadership, who literally laughed when warned to not be dependent on Russia for energy. It's not a meaningless culture war. The loss of energy means lower standard of living at best and mass death and famine at worst.

There were legitimate reasons to be wary of becoming dependent on Russian energy supplies. There were also legitimate reasons to pursue tighter economic integration, which when it comes down it, is the entire raison d'etre for the EU. There were also legitimate reasons to pursue cheap, reliable natural gas.

Trying to now pretend, ex post facto, that this was strikingly obvious and the result of incompetent leadership is profoundly narrow-sighted.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#205

Post by ch4s3 »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #181
ch4s3 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also proactively chose in the wake of the 2003 invasion of Iraq to avoid importing more natural from the US. Schroeder and co wanted to reconnect Western Europe to Russia and avoid any dependence on the U.S. I think we now all see who the more reliable partner for Western Europe has been. [edit] if you’re going to disagree, I’d be interested to hear your specific objections. The shift away from US natural gas is…

The difference is that when the US invaded Iraq, Germany complained a bit but didn't do much else, but when Russia invaded the Ukraine, Germany decided to cut Russia off economically. The reason why the US is a "reliable partner" is that German politics is willing to accept American wars. And before we hear any cries of, "Iraq was different," recall that it was an illegal war of aggression that caused the deaths of h…

My point is that Germany chose further reliance on Russian gas as a response to the Iraq war, they didn’t just complain. Making that choice looks pretty naïve in hindsight.

I’m not here to justify the Iraq war, and no good faith reading of my post would suggest that.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#206

Post by ch4s3 »

hnhg wrote: post #203
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that when the US invaded Iraq, Germany complained a bit but didn't do much else, but when Russia invaded the Ukraine, Germany decided to cut Russia off economically. The reason why the US is a "reliable partner" is that German politics is willing to accept American wars. And before we hear any cries of, "Iraq was different," recall that it was an illegal war of aggression that caused the deaths of h…

I'd add to the list: indirectly creating ISIS, enabling an enormous amounts of ethnic cleaning/genocide of minorities, allowing a takeover of the country by Iran and related militias, and hosing down the place with depleted uranium: https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2019/09/21/new-study-do...

That has nothing to do with my original comment. As a response to the Iraq war, pivoting to Russia as an energy supplier now looks foolish.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#207

Post by sbf501 »

mrtksn wrote: post #74
scifibestfi wrote: post #61

"Russia's decision to halt gas supplies via Europe's key supply route in the wake of the Ukraine conflict has increased the chances of power shortages." Europe's decision, Germany especially, to be reliant on Russia for energy when they could have not shut down nuclear plants and built more.

This place started to think in memes I feel. Every issue comes with the automated arguments, the same ones every time. If the topic is energy someone must write the "they shouldn't have closed those Nuclear power plants, silly environmentalist". Anyway, France is full blown nuclear state and they are having energy issues too, because as it turns out nuclear power plants require long regular maintenance periods. Maybe…

You provide such a wonderful list of factors that may/may-not have contributed to a this crisis that I went cross-eyed and drooled a little at the depth of the complexity. But isn't it a little ironic that you end by blaming the culture war? We're literally a part of it, and it is an enormous obstacle to enacting policies in a rational way. It's not something we can bail-out on, like people fleeing to Canada when they don't get their way in US politics, instead it is something that has to be embraced and worked within as a medium, for better or for worse. I'm reading a book about early humanists in 15th century Italy and the issues are exactly the same. Culture wars are wars of rhetoric and polemic, and will always be with us. Best to master them, no?

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#208

Post by ch4s3 »

ramesh31 wrote: post #202
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that when the US invaded Iraq, Germany complained a bit but didn't do much else, but when Russia invaded the Ukraine, Germany decided to cut Russia off economically. The reason why the US is a "reliable partner" is that German politics is willing to accept American wars. And before we hear any cries of, "Iraq was different," recall that it was an illegal war of aggression that caused the deaths of h…

>And before we hear any cries of, "Iraq was different," recall that it was an illegal war of aggression that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, led to large scale torture, and generally caused a monumental societal collapse in Iraq. I've been trying to come to terms with this since the invasion of Ukraine. Yes, the details on the ground are significantly different. But it doesn't change the legal r…

You’d definitely made the right decision for yourself, and possibly in the general case.

I’d add that while the bursts of hawkishness in US foreign policy are awful, they pale in comparison to the barbarism of other past powers or modern regional powers. That isn’t meant to excuse anything, but look at the Russian invasion and the intentional atrocities being committed. Compare that to the invasion of Iraq and I think any honest reading will reflect governments and societies with very different values.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#209

Post by neodypsis »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #169
mrtksn wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is not obvious, it's obvious only to zealots. It's kind of obvious that the solution is in PHV and wind energy but you can fight it to death with people who would claim that it's obvious that the solution is Nuclear energy. This is not a good discussion, this is fanatics fighting. Anytime someone suggest simple solution to a big problem %99.9 of the time they don't actually have a simple and obvious solu…

> The solution is not obvious, The problem of relying on Russia for energy was obvious. There isn't a singular "the solution" because there were many possible solutions, nuclear energy being just one. In addition to investing in wind/solar, there are other solutions besides nuclear. Particularly, fracing and coal mining. Both of these are unpopular for obvious reasons (which is the reason everybody talks about nuclea…

> The problem of relying on Russia for energy was obvious.

Indeed. Always found it strange that Germany didn't see a problem with relying on Russia for their main energy source.

Re: Europe braces for mobile network blackouts

#210

Post by _vbnz »

COGlory wrote: post #11
nivenkos wrote: post #3

Quoted post unavailable.

You can surely argue that it's not worth the cost in good faith, but there's no way you can describe an invasion and demands of territorial annexation as "reasonable" and still be taken seriously.

I meant his demands that the LPR and DPR hold recognised referendums for independence, that Crimea be officially transferred back to Russia (after being arbitrarily granted to Ukraine by a Communist dictator), and Ukraine to remain neutral.

https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-russian-military-...

Fighting against those isn't worth hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives. The first two will continue to be problematic even if Ukraine wins.

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