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S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

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Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#151

Post by colinmhayes »

cpuguy83 wrote: post #83
twblalock wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically, the only way we can solve this is with incarceration. This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. Some people will simply refuse to live in the housing that is provided. Many are so mentally ill and addicted to drugs that no amount of money we give them, either directly or indirectly, will get them off the streets. Proposed solutions that don't involve incarceration…

This is absolutely appalling. Considering we've historically incarcerated these people and it didn't fix anything, I don't see how you can blame "progressive" attempts to solve the crisis. Do more people come to these cities that have such policies? Probably... but that's not an indictment of the policy. We have a national crisis. We have some cities/states who literally pay for 1-way bus tickets out (as an alternati…

> Having more people in jail solves nothing.

Really? What about the "people are shitting on the street" issue? You don't think arresting people who do that will stop it? It'll create other problems, and obviously we shouldn't just go around and permanently lock up everyone who is living on the street, but doing that would obviously solve some things.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#152

Post by jwlstn »

profile53 wrote: post #73
jwlstn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were true why are the giant homeless populations almost exclusively in insanely expensive housing markets like SF, LA, NYC? Drug addiction is far worse in WV yet they don't have a major homeless problem. Explain this discrepency please if it's all because of drugs

The discrepancy is because this is untrue. Almost every city on the west coast I’ve been to has a large and obvious homeless population.

...and what do we know about housing costs of cities on the west coast?

You're getting REALLY close to getting this.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#153

Post by jwlstn »

twblalock wrote: post #70
jwlstn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were true why are the giant homeless populations almost exclusively in insanely expensive housing markets like SF, LA, NYC? Drug addiction is far worse in WV yet they don't have a major homeless problem. Explain this discrepency please if it's all because of drugs

It's because places like SF, LA, and NYC tolerate it more than other cities. It's that simple.

So is your assertion that cities in WV "disappear" their homeless population?

Show your work here. It's actually not simple at all because per capita drug abuse is far worse in WV so if that's the causal mechanism then you should see tons of homeless in WV.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#154

Post by ska »

km3r wrote: post #47
ska wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, a form of incarceration? An observation: most of the "simple answer" approaches to this seem to have failed badly in practice when/where they are attempted. There has to be some complexity, no?

And the current approach of leaving them to the streets is failing much much worse in practice. Of the politically and economically viable options, kicking them off the street and sending them to shelter (which they can refuse, but they can't stay on the street) is the best option I have seen. Long term we absolutely need to address the issues that cause homelessness, and I think we are overall heading that direction…

Isn't that exactly what is being tried and currently failing in other places? I'm pretty sure I saw an article to that effect about Vancouver this year-ish (the one in Canada, not the one in Washington).

What is it about the shelters (other than lack of spaces) that is making people opt not to use them?

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#155

Post by maerF0x0 »

nerb wrote: post #146
maerF0x0 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> eryone has equal access to resources No false notions required -- all living people have a risk of loss of freedoms, which is why prison works. > why can't there be more public garbage cans I suppose this mostly makes sense until we start to have local businesses using them for free trash disposal. Why would I be more in favor of public trash cans you ask? (so you dont have to continue presuming...) Because it's en…

> all living people have a risk of loss of freedoms you realize that the justice system doesn't equally impact everyone, right? people with more wealth, more access are demonstrably treated better and have better outcomes with regard to the justice system, so no, all living people do not have the same risk of losing freedoms. > ... which is why prison works ah, there it is i'm glad you agree with more access to publi…

> everyone, right? people with more wealth, more access are demonstrably treated

I agree with you that this is an injustice and should be fixed, that doesnt mean we shouldnt work towards using the tool (it's not a either/or scenario, we can do both) .

> is already done in homeless encampments. ...

Only furthers my point as to why we should not be enabling bad behaviors

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#156

Post by Gibbon1 »

gnicholas wrote: post #52
jwlstn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were true why are the giant homeless populations almost exclusively in insanely expensive housing markets like SF, LA, NYC? Drug addiction is far worse in WV yet they don't have a major homeless problem. Explain this discrepency please if it's all because of drugs

I think part of the reason SF and LA have large homeless populations is because of the temperate climate. It's much easier to survive a winter outside in LA than in WV. NYC is a different story, and I'm not sure that if they have the same number of homeless on a per-capita basis as cities like LA, SF, and Sacramento.

Friend of my from the east coast said he found a figure that about 25% of unsheltered homeless in the east coast die every winter.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#157

Post by Ancapistani »

triceratops wrote: post #132
horns4lyfe wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s going to be most of them, as most are drug addicts. And no I don’t have any stats for you, frankly just walk around SF or Portland, it’s obvious.

> frankly just walk around SF or Portland Have you considered that you only notice the addicts and mentally ill? Because they don't give a shit about being seen as homeless. Everyone else is probably trying to keep up appearances by hanging out in libraries or coffee shops during the day.

... and the people who do that are not the reason this is widely seen as a problem.

They're also very unlikely to remain homeless for long periods.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#158

Post by jwlstn »

foobarian wrote: post #67
jwlstn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were true why are the giant homeless populations almost exclusively in insanely expensive housing markets like SF, LA, NYC? Drug addiction is far worse in WV yet they don't have a major homeless problem. Explain this discrepency please if it's all because of drugs

Of those 3 I can explain SF and LA (nice weather) but no idea about NYC.

Every single one of the cities with large homeless populations have absurdly high housing costs.

All the people in this thread are refusing to acknowledge that may play some causal factor because the solution might involve slightly lowering their property values.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#159

Post by colinmhayes »

twblalock wrote: post #74
triceratops wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has little to do with the availability of housing, or the cost of housing. This is a startlingly ignorant take. Shelter is among the basic human needs. If people were starving to death, would you blame mental illness or food prices? > Progressive attempts to solve this problem have all failed Yes. Because they don't focus on creating more housing. Not "affordable" housing, just housing. They're called "progres…

If there were a million empty houses in San Francisco that were available free of charge, there would still be a massive homelessness problem because the real issue is not lack of housing, it's drug addiction and mental illness.

The real issue is both. As I see it there are two types of homeless. There are the people who have a low wage job and for whatever reason get kicked out of their place. Maybe they're couch surfing, or maybe they're on the street. But they do have a desire to contribute, circumstance has just got in the way. These people would not be homeless without the housing affordability crisis since they would be able to save extra money or find a cheap place while they're down.

Then there are the chronically homeless. Those with no desire to become productive. These are the people that imo would be helped by forced rehab programs. But make no mistake, many, many homeless are the first type, not the second.

Re: S.F. sued over homeless camp sweeps: city charged with criminalizing unsheltered

#160

Post by triceratops »

Ancapistani wrote: post #157
triceratops wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> frankly just walk around SF or Portland Have you considered that you only notice the addicts and mentally ill? Because they don't give a shit about being seen as homeless. Everyone else is probably trying to keep up appearances by hanging out in libraries or coffee shops during the day.

... and the people who do that are not the reason this is widely seen as a problem. They're also very unlikely to remain homeless for long periods.

Why do they ever become homeless at all?
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