Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6% • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#231

Post by hollerith » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:18 PM UTC

KptMarchewa wrote: post #108

colejohnson66 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Apple needs TSMC. Not saying you’re wrong, but TSMC also has leverage. TSMC doesn’t want to price Apple out, but at the same time, Apple can’t just pack up and go to a competitor. At the nodes they’re working at, going to a competitor could require a complete relayout with new design rules.

Intel was at the same position as TSMC now - there was no competing supplier. Apple decided to become one themselves.

I don't understand this comment: even if there were times in past years when AMD CPUs were significantly less performant and more energy-hungry than Intel CPUs, Macs with AMD CPUs that would have sold at least well enough to keep the Mac alive as a product line.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#232

Post by matwood » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:19 PM UTC

jaywalk wrote: post #117

matwood wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is cutting back iPhone Pro production [1] No, iPhone Pro demand is very strong. The regular iPhone demand appears soft or didn't ramp up. None is this is a surprise since early adopters would likely be the same who buy the Pros.

I think the iPhone 14 Plus was a huge miss for them. Anyone who wants a bigger phone probably also wants the Pro. Wouldn't be surprised if there is no iPhone 15 Plus.

The iPhone 14 Plus hasn't even launched yet, so kind of hard to tell either way. I think it'll be one of the more popular phones for the walk-in crowd who only replaces their phone when their existing one breaks.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#233

Post by hollerith » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

petesergeant wrote: post #112

madeofpalk wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears they both equally need each other. If TMSC rejects Apple, what is Apple going to do? Use Intel chips in iPhones?

Say "OK, for now!", and then drop some of its gigantic cash pile into helping another supplier that it part-owns become a real competitor

The Chinese government, whose cash piles are even larger, has been unsuccessfully trying to do that for decades (i.e., produce semiconductors on the Chinese mainland high-end enough to go into a notebook computer that can compete on the global market).

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#234

Post by duxup » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

JacobThreeThree wrote: post #213

duxup wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same options as TSMC, continue negotiating. They both want this to get worked out.

It seems like one of the options is to leak some of the negotiation details to the media.

Plenty of leaks out there that aren't a part of some strategy, sometimes it is just a leak.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#235

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:21 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #179

ren_engineer wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan's government would never allow TSMC to be acquired, it's key to their national security

If Apple owned TSMC, wouldn't that make Taiwan more secure, since the US would have more of an interest?

[deleted]

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#236

Post by hollerith » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:21 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #172

gizmo wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) TSMC is not for sale. It's of national importance to Taiwan. 2) There is only one TSMC. If you could just buy one for 500bn the EU would have bought 3 already. Building your own TSMC from scratch takes a decade, if not longer.

If it takes a decade the time to start is now. I bet if you try the US and EU quietly tell you to stop, because Taiwan without a TSMC monopoly would be very scared.

And why do the US and European governments care more about how scared Taiwan is than the security of their access to high-end semiconductors?

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#237

Post by bombcar » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:23 PM UTC

hollerith wrote: post #236

bombcar wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it takes a decade the time to start is now. I bet if you try the US and EU quietly tell you to stop, because Taiwan without a TSMC monopoly would be very scared.

And why do the US and European governments care more about how scared Taiwan is than the security of their access to high-end semiconductors?

Cynically I'd say it's because high-end semiconductors aren't as important to national security as people think they are.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#238

Post by ras3022 » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:31 PM UTC

eternalban wrote: post #226

atonse wrote: post #6

I'd love to be a fly on the wall during these negotiations. Just to see what the heck they even talk about, what information each party comes armed with, and what kinds of concessions get offered. I mean it isn't just a "we'll lower this" I bet there's lots of juicy confidential future roadmap stuff, things like "Ok we'll help you invest in this _____ tech and machinery but you have to knock off half a cent" or who k…

Apple: We have 200 billion dollars in cash. That's close to CCP's defense budget for '21. Taiwan:? Apple: We also have the technology. Taiwan: ?? Apple: Did we ever tell you about our iSoldier project? ["parody. not to be taken seriously"]

That's funny but $200B seemed way too small. Then I found this: https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0053_defense-comparison

"The United States spends more on national defense than China, India, Russia, United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Germany, France, Japan, and South Korea — combined."

!?

And $200B is inside the consensus estimate of $200B to $300B. Wow.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#239

Post by eternalban » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

ras3022 wrote: post #238

eternalban wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple: We have 200 billion dollars in cash. That's close to CCP's defense budget for '21. Taiwan:? Apple: We also have the technology. Taiwan: ?? Apple: Did we ever tell you about our iSoldier project? ["parody. not to be taken seriously"]

That's funny but $200B seemed way too small. Then I found this: https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0053_defense-comparison "The United States spends more on national defense than China, India, Russia, United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Germany, France, Japan, and South Korea — combined." !? And $200B is inside the consensus estimate of $200B to $300B. Wow.

Not to forget, Apple also controls the app store and billions of devoted fans with iPhone with push notifications /g. Seriously I am wondering when will we see a corporation go to war in a kind of futuristic Opium War sort of battle.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#240

Post by choko » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

ras3022 wrote: post #238

eternalban wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple: We have 200 billion dollars in cash. That's close to CCP's defense budget for '21. Taiwan:? Apple: We also have the technology. Taiwan: ?? Apple: Did we ever tell you about our iSoldier project? ["parody. not to be taken seriously"]

That's funny but $200B seemed way too small. Then I found this: https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0053_defense-comparison "The United States spends more on national defense than China, India, Russia, United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, Germany, France, Japan, and South Korea — combined." !? And $200B is inside the consensus estimate of $200B to $300B. Wow.

I'm not a fan of comparisons like that because they don't account for cost or standard of living between counties, just raw exchange rates. It would be especially pronounced when including countries like India and Russia.