I've said it all before but here we go again • Hacker News Board

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#161

Post by noobermin » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

bjornsing wrote: post #9

I only have a master in (engineering) physics but working with statistical modeling and AI I’ve come to appreciate the “all models are wrong but some models are useful”-mindset, and I’ve started applying that to physical “laws” as well: I no longer see them as some divine truths waiting to be discovered, but more like models of the world that will always be wrong but sometimes useful. From that point of view what’s h…

Re the first paragraph: It's good you think that because that literally is what we teach and should believe. People who believe otherwise are mistaken. Even so called fundamental physics is studied within an approximation almost always.

The moment you say "photon" you're making an approximation (usually monochromatic and plane wave without sources, in the infrared region, and so on). Physicists who think otherwise simply do not understand what they are doing.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#162

Post by beezle » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

quantum_mcts wrote: post #144

gramie wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't up- or down-vote you, but I would guess it is because your comment was an ad hominem, attacking her personality rather than her arguments. People can be angry for good reasons or bad, so calling her angry doesn't advance the debate at all. I'm not a physicist, but it seems to me that her main point seems valid: for the past ~50 years, theoretical physics has been engaged in a process that is rewarding (with…

> for the past ~50 years, theoretical physics has been engaged in a process that is rewarding people creating theories that cannot ever be proven true or false. This is not true on several levels. First of all, there is a place for studying mathematical abstractions (strings and such) and there is nothing wrong with doing mathematics. Second, theoretical physics rewards theories that can be falsified - there is a hug…

It might be more accurate to say "there has been a place for the industry of mathematical abstractions (strings and such)" since the very late 1960s/early 1970s S-Matrix theory.

I think the various funding agencies around the world are largely to blame for the current situation in HEP and how/where research (theory and experiment) efforts are focused. "Efforts" can be read as man-years and money.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#163

Post by noobermin » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 5:05 PM UTC

stdbrouw wrote: post #82

FWIW, Hossenfelder sounds a bit like a crackpot contrarian in this article, but her book "Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray" is incredibly nuanced and well-argued.

I didn't feel that way at all, she seemed fine and reasonable if not upset at how she has been treated by particle physicists.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#164

Post by noobermin » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 5:08 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #35

Well, high energy physics does seem to be kind of stuck. The cosmology and big collider crowd don't seem to get much in the way of new results for the amount of effort expended. How are the string theorists doing? The interesting experimental results in recent years mostly seem to come from very low energy physics. Down around absolute zero, many interesting effects have been demonstrated.

Hey much has been done in high energy density or high temperature physics, we have a freaking fusion article every week here. Don't count us all out, were not all lost in space like particle theorists.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#165

Post by louwrentius » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

mola wrote: post #102

As someone who has no skin in the game at all, I find her way of presenting criticism very contrarian argumentative and snarky. She might be completely right, but I can definitely understand the reluctance to hear her out on merit of style.

Tone policing women is so on-brand for the HN bros, great job.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#166

Post by noobermin » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

A bit of a meta comment, but a lot of people are calling Hossenfelder "crack potty" or "ranty" and I just don't get that at all reading this post or the many before. She seems upset yes from the abuse she's received, but that seems understandable. I don't understand how people feel she is so combative unless you already disagree with her.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#167

Post by smadge » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

mikewarot wrote: post #158

Sabine seems to be promoting a twist on Newton's flaming laser sword, also known as Alder's razor: What cannot be settled by experiment is not worth debating. What cannot be disproven by experiment, is not worth funding I'd say she's right.

These hypothetical particles can be disproven by experiment; they are falsifiable. However it is very expensive and there’s no reason to believe they exist.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#168

Post by User23 » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

bowsamic wrote: post #160

User23 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a general principle that you cleave to? Would you also say that the uneducated layman can’t be trusted when discussing the Ukraine conflict as well? Perhaps I should only trust Russians on the subject of Russia, since they’re clearly the experts. Or is your position limited to areas adjacent to your paycheck?

I only think it's the case in terms of medicine or science, especially disciplines that are so granular that even someone from one subfield can't fully understand a paper in the next. Most areas of physics are so specialised that they take at least a decade or two to become competent in. I don't think politics or war are as specialised. Also, those things are within the realms of daily experience, while most physics…

> I only think it's the case in terms of medicine or science, especially disciplines that are so granular that even someone from one subfield can't fully understand a paper in the next.

Paycheck adjacent it is then.

> I don't think politics or war are as specialised. Also, those things are within the realms of daily experience, while most physics is not.

Evidently we all have our areas of ignorance. It’s silly that you say leading armies and countries is a matter of everyday experience, but physics isn’t. Suffice to say modern warfare is a deep field and politics is basically intractable for any formal approach.

And doubtless experts at defense contractors will use similar arguments to yours for why their funding shouldn’t be cut either.

> You know well why a lay person's opinion on politics is more relevant than a lay person's opinion on physics.

I do not know that. I know that the both the layman’s and the physicist’s opinions on politics and physics are equally irrelevant to the people who control spending and policy. I may not be up to date on the latest epicycles added to quantum chromodynamics, but I’ve had enough experience to know that the grants are not allotted on the basis of actual scientific merit.

I do think naked self-interest is leading you into cognitive dissonance. You know full well that science funding is more a political matter than a scientific one. Thus you either contradict yourself or agree that the opinions of the layman ought to be relevant to funding physics experimentation.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#169

Post by quantum_mcts » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

beezle wrote: post #162

quantum_mcts wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for the past ~50 years, theoretical physics has been engaged in a process that is rewarding people creating theories that cannot ever be proven true or false. This is not true on several levels. First of all, there is a place for studying mathematical abstractions (strings and such) and there is nothing wrong with doing mathematics. Second, theoretical physics rewards theories that can be falsified - there is a hug…

It might be more accurate to say "there has been a place for the industry of mathematical abstractions (strings and such)" since the very late 1960s/early 1970s S-Matrix theory. I think the various funding agencies around the world are largely to blame for the current situation in HEP and how/where research (theory and experiment) efforts are focused. "Efforts" can be read as man-years and money.

> S-Matrix theory

I don't get it. You have something against S-Matrix theory? Why do you call it an "industry"?

> funding agencies are largely to blame for the current situation in HEP and how/where research efforts are focused

Current situation in HEP is fine. The whole theoretical physics community decides where research efforts should be focused. No one else can do that even if he wanted to.

Re: I've said it all before but here we go again

#170

Post by quantum_mcts » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

mikewarot wrote: post #158

Sabine seems to be promoting a twist on Newton's flaming laser sword, also known as Alder's razor: What cannot be settled by experiment is not worth debating. What cannot be disproven by experiment, is not worth funding I'd say she's right.

How would you disprove Big Bang cosmology by an experiment?