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We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

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Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#31

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

moqmar wrote: post #22
Octoth0rpe wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These cloud providers are, by definition, charging you more than it would cost you to run it yourself. That is _not_ a given. They're charging you more than it costs _them_ to run it. They get: - much lower hardware prices than you - lower bandwidth prices than you - likely lower electricity costs than you

That is why VPS providers are cheaper than running your own hardware, at least assuming you're not always fully utilizing it. Cloud providers on the other hand, they don't really sell the resources - they mainly sell convenience, and that seems to be worth a lot.

VPS is virtualized, of course it's cheaper than running your own hardware.

Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#32

Post by fabian2k »

brodouevencode wrote: post #30
hnrodey wrote: post #8

I find this interesting, if nothing else. My first question is what was the opportunity cost of focusing manpower to setting up on-prem infrastructure that now needs maintained? What on the product roadmap was sacrificed/delayed in exchange for the time on this project? What are the projected future hiring costs to maintain these servers (and applications like Cassandra!) going forward? Nothing is free, and at just 4…

This is what a lot of people miss when they talk about moving to/from cloud providers. The marginal cost to add X more servers in the cloud is basically nothing, whereas to set up a new rack for on-prem requires requirements gathering, purchase orders, finance approvals, someone being at the dock when the UPS truck arrives, rack and stacks, etc. Those are one-time, yet very real costs. These fall under cap-ex which a…

You can rent servers if you don't want to bother with this. The choice is not only between doing everything yourself and the cloud, there are a lot of options in between.

Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#33

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

HWR_14 wrote: post #28
zo1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can. Ask one of your devs to spend X amount of time on something. Might not be an exact 1 for 1 or 0.1% but it still beats the many many hours you'd waste architecting around cloud-specific issues and nuances. Or the cost of dealing with the friction that comes when you want to do anything with cloud in a manner that isn't cloud-supported.

Devs love being told to set up servers! And always do so well. After all, computer person is a fungible skill set. I mean, it is fungible enough that they can learn, but they'll probably make a lot of mistakes along the way and be less efficient.

Any developer that can't setup a server has fundamental gaps in their skillset.

Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#34

Post by rglullis »

Octoth0rpe wrote: post #10
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #2

I'm glad to see more of these types of articles, but at the same time I'm a bit flabbergasted that this isn't obvious for so many people. These cloud providers are, by definition, charging you more than it would cost you to run it yourself. What you get in return is a guarantee of expertise and an ecosystem.

> These cloud providers are, by definition, charging you more than it would cost you to run it yourself. That is _not_ a given. They're charging you more than it costs _them_ to run it. They get: - much lower hardware prices than you - lower bandwidth prices than you - likely lower electricity costs than you

That is true of any datacenter, but any offering from AWS/GCS/Azure/Digital Ocean/Vultr is an order of magnitude more expensive than Hetzner/OVH/Scaleway clouds, and orders of magnitude more expensive than if I just get a handful of dedicated servers and run my own Minio servers (to replace S3) and manage my own databases and build my own OpenStack /k8s/Nomad/Swarm cluster.

Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#35

Post by alberth »

Dedicated hosting providers.

I'm so amazed that somehow people completely forget that for literally decades, web host provided dedicated hosting options at fantastic prices.

Yes, loooong time ago - to get your dedicated server might have taken a few hours to provision and the instant server access that AWS brought should not be discredited.

But large numbers of web host today allow you to programmatically spin up a dedicated web host instantaneously and at a fraction of the cost.

Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#36

Post by brodouevencode »

fabian2k wrote: post #32
brodouevencode wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what a lot of people miss when they talk about moving to/from cloud providers. The marginal cost to add X more servers in the cloud is basically nothing, whereas to set up a new rack for on-prem requires requirements gathering, purchase orders, finance approvals, someone being at the dock when the UPS truck arrives, rack and stacks, etc. Those are one-time, yet very real costs. These fall under cap-ex which a…

You can rent servers if you don't want to bother with this. The choice is not only between doing everything yourself and the cloud, there are a lot of options in between.

Yes - that's a very fair point. It should still be calculated in the cost, and I don't think the article does a very good job of identifying the tradeoffs to OPs point.

Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#37

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

rossdavidh wrote: post #7
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #2

I'm glad to see more of these types of articles, but at the same time I'm a bit flabbergasted that this isn't obvious for so many people. These cloud providers are, by definition, charging you more than it would cost you to run it yourself. What you get in return is a guarantee of expertise and an ecosystem.

I think some of this is due to the presence (until just recently) of abundant VC money, encouraging tech companies to trade of money for time by outsourcing their server admin (or part of it, anyway). It's one less thing you have to hire for and spend time getting good corporate policies and procedures on. But, now that the emphasis seems to have shifted from growth-at-all-costs to where-can-we-cut-costs, I think the…

imo this is the right takeaway.

You see a lot of posters commenting that it isn't obvious that it's more expensive, but that's a large part of why I said I'm flabbergasted at how many people don't find it obvious.

It is obvious, someone may still choose to pay it because there's a natural tradeoff, but it's absolutely obvious.

I suspect most developers don't find it obvious because they've never dealt with actual servers themselves.

It's akin to arguing changing the oil on your vehicle is more expensive than paying someone to do it. No, it's more convenient, and that may make it worth the price.

Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#39

Post by that_guy_iain »

alberth wrote: post #35

Dedicated hosting providers. I'm so amazed that somehow people completely forget that for literally decades, web host provided dedicated hosting options at fantastic prices. Yes, loooong time ago - to get your dedicated server might have taken a few hours to provision and the instant server access that AWS brought should not be discredited. But large numbers of web host today allow you to programmatically spin up a d…

> Yes, loooong time ago - to get your dedicated server might have taken a few hours to provision and the instant server access that AWS brought should not be discredited.

At one point it took often days for a dedicated server to be set up. We also didn't have such nice provisioning tools.

Now it just seems like cargo cult to use cloud providers as the only option. People just completely discount dedicated servers.

Re: We reduced our server costs by moving away from AWS

#40

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

ehutch79 wrote: post #12
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #2

I'm glad to see more of these types of articles, but at the same time I'm a bit flabbergasted that this isn't obvious for so many people. These cloud providers are, by definition, charging you more than it would cost you to run it yourself. What you get in return is a guarantee of expertise and an ecosystem.

When you're a small team, possibly solo, having someone else deal with hardware is key. Focusing just on what you're working on is great.

assuming the money isn't an existential risk, that's absolutely true.

I was commenting on the expense rather than why you would (or wouldn't) want to use cloud.

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