Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

wccftech.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 271 posts

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#91

Post by gpapilion »

jimnotgym wrote: post #11
alphabetting wrote: post #7

TSMC charging 6% more for the 3nm process seems reasonable. Article notes Apple accounts for 25% of their revenue and says this gives them leverage over TSMC but aren't they the only 3nm player in town?

That was my thought. Can't they just threaten to sell the space to someone else?

My thought is margin is low on apple but volume is high. They also are a good partner helping to push the process forward. AMD and NVIDIA are probably more profitable than apple for tsmc but volumes are much lower.

I also think the ability to improve tier prices as fast as they have is directly related to apple’s volumes.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#93

Post by MangoCoffee »

jbverschoor wrote: post #26
webmobdev wrote: post #9

Apple has more to lose here as they've bet their future on Apple Silicons currently only manufactured at TSMC. So it is interesting to see them still trying to arm-twist TSMC - would love to see their playbook as this is something they are known to do with all their suppliers.

AFAIK TSMC is operating Apple’s machines. If they want, and the contract allows, they can ship the machines somewhere else, and operate them there themselves or with another partner. It’s not like TSMC builds the machines. They just operate them, and we all know what happens to the man in the middle.

>It’s not like TSMC builds the machines. They just operate them

you clearly have no idea on chip manufacturing.

if foundry just operate machine then why GlobalFoundries licenses Samsung 14nm? it just operating machines, right? just operating machines, why you need to licenses the process? isn't ASML or other machine vendors cover everything you need? just operating machines required R&D on operating machines?

https://techreport.com/news/26336/globalfoundries-licenses-s...

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#94

Post by ethbr0 »

andreime wrote: post #88
svnt wrote: post #77

My reading of this is that Apple is happy to wait a bit on next-gen given the macro conditions. However if they just admitted that it would be a big hit to image. So instead they are looking to create scapegoats. The most plausible scapegoat is the cutting-edge one with a price hike because there is maximum room for others to speculate on what isn’t right/good enough, and there is minimum risk of giving up their spot…

You think it's possible apple builds a new fab (they have none) and immediately jumps to better than TSMC 5nm?

No. It's impossible to trade (even infinite amounts of) money for calendar time or supply access.

Any moves Apple made now would wind their way through ASML et al., through fab construction and qualification, and then finally adapting their chips to a new process.

They could pull the trigger on the Power to Intel because they'd spent a decade+ of contingency planning, OS/app support, and acquisitions.

This isn't like that.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#95

Post by bombcar »

Sakos wrote: post #72
onceiwasthere wrote: post #59

Being almost completely uninformed on the details of Apple/TSMC's dealings, I'm curious, would Apple ever position themselves to get into chip fabrication? I'm sure there are big reasons this is unlikely but it seems like if anyone could do it, it's Apple.

Honestly, I'm surprised they haven't started yet. If TSMC puts up too much of a fight, they might start internally considering how they would get into chip fabrication. They've already done everything else to great success (and to much surprise), so while the problem seems insurmountable, maybe Apple would be able to do what nobody else has been able to do in decades (aside from the Chinese with significant state inv…

If Apple isn't at least working on how to bring chip manufacturing in-house I'd be incredibly surprised. They have $48 billion in cash on hand, they at least have worked out a plan on how they would do it if needed.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#96

Post by madeofpalk »

_kbh_ wrote: post #56
cft wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since they are basically the only manufacturer, when Apple "rejects" the price hike, what options does Apple have?

Considering Apple funds a lot of TSMC's R&D I dare say they have a lot of leverage if they really wanna push it.

It appears they both equally need each other.

If TMSC rejects Apple, what is Apple going to do? Use Intel chips in iPhones?

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#97

Post by ren_engineer »

andreime wrote: post #88
svnt wrote: post #77

My reading of this is that Apple is happy to wait a bit on next-gen given the macro conditions. However if they just admitted that it would be a big hit to image. So instead they are looking to create scapegoats. The most plausible scapegoat is the cutting-edge one with a price hike because there is maximum room for others to speculate on what isn’t right/good enough, and there is minimum risk of giving up their spot…

You think it's possible apple builds a new fab (they have none) and immediately jumps to better than TSMC 5nm?

fabs take years to build. The only real option Apple would have is some kind of joint venture with Intel and maybe try to bring in the US Department of Defense or US government in general to push the whole chip national security talking point and get more funding

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#98

Post by nyokodo »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #89
_kbh_ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering Apple funds a lot of TSMC's R&D I dare say they have a lot of leverage if they really wanna push it.

But Apple needs TSMC. Not saying you’re wrong, but TSMC also has leverage. TSMC doesn’t want to price Apple out, but at the same time, Apple can’t just pack up and go to a competitor. At the nodes they’re working at, going to a competitor could require a complete relayout with new design rules.

> Apple can’t just pack up and go to a competitor

No, but they can use their massive war chest and expertise to ramp up a competitor or become one themselves over the next decade or two. With massive corporate ships like TSMC and Apple it takes a long time to change course but they work on longer timelines so a big negative shift over a long time scale is an alarming signal.

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#99

Post by etempleton »

I would suspect the strong dollar is impacting these negotiations. TSMC is probably trying to maintain margins and Apple is bulking at the larger than normal price increase.

On one hand Apple doesn’t really have any other partner to go to that can deliver on 3nm or anything equivalent. On the other hand, at this point, does it even matter? Sure, it would be nice, but is it worth the cost?

TSMC also needs to look at it and say Apple accounts for 25% of our business and the most lucrative and prestigious 25% at that. Is it worth potentially harming the relationship?

Re: Apple Has Reportedly Rejected TSMC's Chip Price Hike of 6%

#100

Post by akelly »

float4 wrote: post #22

> Apple has rejected these offers. [...] This may be one reason why we reported that the upcoming M2 Pro and the M2 Max for updated MacBook Pro models would be manufactured on the 5nm process instead of 3nm; both entities might not have reached a middle ground for price agreement. This makes no sense? M1 / M1 Pro / M1 Max / M1 Ultra were all manufactured on TSMC N5, even though volume production for N5P (improved N5)…

The rumor I read was the entire M2 line was designed for N3 and then that got delayed so they backported to N5P.
Post reply on HN