Earlier quoted context omitted.
So ... Flutter? https://flutter.dev/
Flutter looked cool, until I realised it was a Google product. After being burned by Angular, Material, and all the things killedbygoogle, I'm not sure I can stomach even trying it out. Is that stupid?
Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
231–240 of 313 posts
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#232> installed desktop web apps are really starting to look and feel like native apps I think we are having the opposite problem: native apps are really starting to look and feel like web apps, and in many cases, they are. The problem: the web has a terrible UI toolkit for desktop apps. It has clickable links and basic forms, that's all. It was made for documents, not apps. If you want better than that, you have to rewr…
> Traditional Windows apps all use system provided common controls, because they are good, and therefore they have a consistent look and feel, even through OS updates. This hasn’t been consistent since at least Vista and the release of WPF, which does totally custom control rendering. Circa 2006. I think web is taking over on Windows because any of 10 or 15 different design systems can get you to a better app than th…
Ignoring 3rd party apps, to me the windows UI died with XP where the consistency stopped being somewhat pushed on the base OS/UX itself.
Strictly speaking nobody cares what APIs are being used or if there are multiple of them as long as they convey a consistent UX. If a consistent UX is pushed on a system level, even custom apps will try to stick to it (see macos).
But the sad truth is that on windows there is no longer one. W10 can show you dialogs from the windows 3.1 style up to a WPA, and you'll likely encounter a mixture all the time because there's no consistency.
I sometimes watch retro hw channels and looking at windows from 3 to 2k reminds me the stark difference.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Traditional Windows apps all use system provided common controls, because they are good, and therefore they have a consistent look and feel, even through OS updates. This hasn’t been consistent since at least Vista and the release of WPF, which does totally custom control rendering. Circa 2006. I think web is taking over on Windows because any of 10 or 15 different design systems can get you to a better app than th…
Office is using web technologies because they don't want to rewrite their code for Office 365, so native users get the Web stuff on a Web widget instead of a proper native UI. Which is kind of tragic, given how Office was the testing ground for many Windows UI components.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
What are you even talking about the only non native app in the office package is teams…
https://www.office.com/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/javascript/api/office-ui-f...
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#235I actually wish programs do not put content in the Title bar area. The title bar area is meant for users to move the Window around. Try opening Microsoft Word, make the window narrow and drag the window. You have to hunt for a small bit of empty space in the title bar or you have to understand you could drag on the Title text, Search box and the Sign in Username, but not the Auto Save text, Upcoming Features icon, or…
I much prefer what a lot of Linux desktop environments support, which is holding down alt and clicking anywhere on a window to move it. With that + a keyboard shortcut for closing a window you can get rid of title bars on apps entirely if you want. Sadly Windows doesn't support it natively, although there's another comment on this thread talking about ways to make it work.
Restricting tabs to the top edge of the window is stupid, because text is much wider than it is tall, so you can fit a lot more labeled tabs in a vertical column along the left or right edge of the window, than in a horizontal row along the top or bottom edge of the window. The tabs you get along the top edge of Chrome are useless when you have a lot of tabs opened, because all you can see are the icons, and none of the labels are visible.
That way the tabs are all visible even when the window isn't, and they afford a very easy way to see all the window titles at once, bring the window to the front, drag it around, and pop up pie menus to do things like push it to the back or front (down/up gestures), iconify it, make it full screen, and other window management commands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_(interface)
Example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_(interface)#/media/File:Hy...
>HyperTIES browser and Gosling Emacs authoring tool with pie menus on the NeWS window system (1988)
>HyperTIES is an early hypermedia browser developed under the direction of Dr. Ben Shneiderman at the University of Maryland Human Computer Interaction Lab. This screen snapshot shows the HyperTIES authoring tool (built with UniPress's Gosling Emacs text editor, written in MockLisp) and browser (built with the NeWS window system, written in PostScript, C and Forth). The tabbed windows and pie menu reusable components were developed by Don Hopkins, who also developed the NeWS Emacs (NeMACS) and HyperTIES user interfaces. (Sorry about the quality -- this is a scan of an old screen dump printed by a laser printer.)
Tabbed windows in combination with pie menus are the ingredients for a great window manager.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMcmQk-q0k4
>NeWS Tab Window Demo (1990)
Demo of the Pie Menu Tab Window Manager for The NeWS Toolkit 2.0. Developed and demonstrated by Don Hopkins.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#236> installed desktop web apps are really starting to look and feel like native apps I think we are having the opposite problem: native apps are really starting to look and feel like web apps, and in many cases, they are. The problem: the web has a terrible UI toolkit for desktop apps. It has clickable links and basic forms, that's all. It was made for documents, not apps. If you want better than that, you have to rewr…
Windows GUI API after 30 years still does not provide any kind of a layout manager forcing to position everything manually on size changes.
A trivial-sounding task like background image beneath controls required days of tries and many lines of code that looked like Voodoo practice than any rational programming.
Then the code uses a custom title-bar that was necessary to update to support Windows 11 snap layout menu. It turned out in the initial release of Windows 11 it was impossible to get that and rounded corners around the application window. Windows relied on undocumented heuristics to infer the desired behavior and if their guess was wrong, one is out of luck. At least Microsoft added API to fix that in a later Windows 11 update.
So it is not surprising that many applications just gave up on that and use WebUI. At least that works much more reliably and in the worst case one can look at the source code.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#237Separately from the issue of titlebars, I want Chrome's PWAs to open external links in my default browser (Firefox), not a new Chrome window. Sadly I can't make Firefox install web apps as system icons because they removed experimental Firefox SSB support (they said to reduce maintenance overhead). Interestingly I found https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/pwas-for-fire... but have not tried it yet.
A little tedious to setup, especially as the PWAs all get new profiles with their own extensions, themes, etc. But other than that, it works fine.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Traditional Windows apps all use system provided common controls, because they are good, and therefore they have a consistent look and feel, even through OS updates. This hasn’t been consistent since at least Vista and the release of WPF, which does totally custom control rendering. Circa 2006. I think web is taking over on Windows because any of 10 or 15 different design systems can get you to a better app than th…
> I think web is taking over on Windows because any of 10 or 15 different design systems can get you to a better app than the native (whatever that means) toolkits in much less time. It is easier to get a decent color picker in a web app than a WPF, WinForms, UWP, WinUI, or Win32 app (assuming you have a reasonably high expectation for UI/UX, as I do). I'll grant you that it's probably easier and cheaper to get a wor…
And if you build an updater in your app like chrome / firefox then it needs to be disabled for Linux distributions that have their own package manager.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
And then a shady company offers to buy the owner's website...
That’s a real problem, of course, but it seems fairly equivalent to any native app you install that can update itself or otherwise make a network request to obtain instructions.
I am the reason Signal desktop now has a preference to opt out of autoupdate.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
https://www.office.com/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/javascript/api/office-ui-f...
????? Nobody is saying that there aren’t webviews in office I am saying that your statement that most of the desktop office ui is now non native is false and misleading. After reading your other comments in the thread it seems like more of a personal vendetta than factual statements. lmao
So unless you're on the Office team and want to tell us anything, please do lmao.