As someone that has been a hardcore Mac user since the 80s, it feels really weird liking things that Microsoft has been doing lately...
Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
151–160 of 313 posts
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of developers are not fans of Electron. Generally, it's a quality vs quantity tradeoff. Are you willing to make a crappier thing if it means more people can use it? For companies like Microsoft making something like Teams, I think it sucks. They have the resources to make native apps and when you have tens of millions of users, adding support for another platform would cost them pennies per user.
> For companies like Microsoft making something like Teams, I think it sucks. They have the resources to make native apps and when you have tens of millions of users, adding support for another platform would cost them pennies per user. Back when I worked at Microsoft, 2014 or so, we had serious problems finding Win32 developers. We essentially had to train people up. While I am sure the Windows org had lots of them,…
> Back when I worked at Microsoft, 2014 or so, we had serious problems finding Win32 developers. We essentially had to train people up.
Microsoft only has itself to blame for this. They charge an arm and a leg for their dev environment setting it up is a pain no matter what, the stuff you get “free” when you pay for the dev environment is not nearly enough to create anything worthwhile. So why should any CS department bother with win32 circa 2005. As much as Balmer liked to chant about the importance of developers he sure liked to milk them dry.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#153Hopefully Apple keeps moving in the direction of better embracing PWAs. I am encouraged that iOS 16 includes support for web push notifications. This suggests to me Apple may be more willing to embrace PWA web standards.
I just really hope the onboarding experience is improved. Right now it's very convoluted and messaging is extremely difficult, in some places impossible.
For example, in SFSafariViewController there is no “add to home screen” button in the share menu, but in actual safari there is. Despite them both being web view experiences controlled entirely by Apple.
(And you can’t detect SFSafariViewController vs Safari as a web app, so good luck onboarding users for your PWA.)
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#154I actually wish programs do not put content in the Title bar area. The title bar area is meant for users to move the Window around. Try opening Microsoft Word, make the window narrow and drag the window. You have to hunt for a small bit of empty space in the title bar or you have to understand you could drag on the Title text, Search box and the Sign in Username, but not the Auto Save text, Upcoming Features icon, or…
I much prefer what a lot of Linux desktop environments support, which is holding down alt and clicking anywhere on a window to move it. With that + a keyboard shortcut for closing a window you can get rid of title bars on apps entirely if you want. Sadly Windows doesn't support it natively, although there's another comment on this thread talking about ways to make it work.
In Firefox holding down alt lets you select text in links without navigating to the link target. How do you do that without moving the window?
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
I also dislike how apps are now disabling the classic win32 app icon in the top left corner. If you click on it, you get a menu with window management options and double clicking it closes the window. It’s so burned into my muscle memory as the way to close a window I get frustrated when apps hide it.
As a fallback, you could always use Alt+Space to open the menu, Ctrl+W to close a window and good ole Alt+F4 to close the app
I've seen alt+f4 not have the desired effect (minimising the app or sending it to the tray instead).
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#156With all this Electron and PWA focused development a cannot shake a feeling that we add an extra layer of a "runtime" on top of an operating system, that could be avoided. An extra layer which occupies RAM space and processor time which feels unnecessary but it is where we are headed. I wonder if the reason is simple, that we (myself included) have not provided anything better or the reason is that big corporations w…
The bottom line is that Electron is portable. Unless native apps become as portable as Electron there will be a need for this layer. The optimistic scenario is that WASM becomes the single target that everyone settles on, and that the performance penalty is minimized while the security sandbox is strengthened.
Java Swing apps were portable across Windows, Mac and Linux desktops waaayy back in 2004 and probably earlier. Write once run everywhere _was_ very much possible back then.
The biggest complaint was they didn't look native. From working on a Swing application back then, management and marketing would often ask if we could make it look more like other Windows applications, because looking like a native Windows XP application suggested it was modern and cutting edge.
As soon an iTunes landed on Windows, the requests for UI improvement changed from "make it look like Windows" to "make it look sexy" - which meant different things to different people.
Electron, to me, feels like an attempt to take a browser engine and turn it into a poor replacement for the JVM.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#157This seems widly exploitable. Even on the OS level, I would argue an application should not have access to thoes 30 pixels. Beyond rhe security concerns, this seems like a proprietarization of the web for Win11, a la Internet Explorer.
Better stop installing desktop apps then
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#158I actually wish programs do not put content in the Title bar area. The title bar area is meant for users to move the Window around. Try opening Microsoft Word, make the window narrow and drag the window. You have to hunt for a small bit of empty space in the title bar or you have to understand you could drag on the Title text, Search box and the Sign in Username, but not the Auto Save text, Upcoming Features icon, or…
The Windows style for bars (both title and status) is way too large. Ditto for the task bar. It's no wonder people are tempted to not use status bars, and shove as much as possible at the title. If applications could exploit the task bar, they would too. (Anyway, you don't need an entire bar for system interaction. But applications aren't designed in a way that allows this.)
The older I get, the more I respect bigger user interface elements and text.
It's not even failing eyesight either; I'm still in my mid 30s and have great eyesight and dexterity. I've come to respect bigger interface elements because they are quicker to work with.
I don't have to peck for a title bar if it's there, big and empty in front of me. I don't have to hunt for a scroll bar that hides itself and reveals a 1px wide sliver if I hover over it just right, if the scroll bar is big and always visible. I don't have to aim my mouse like I'm playing a fucking sniper in a fucking FPS if the buttons are clearly texted, colored, bordered, and large.
Being able to /just fucking use the interface/ with broad motions is a fucking godsend. The trend of minimalism, hide-everything, gray-on-white interfaces gets in my way and wastes my time and nerves.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hard disagree. Vertical space is a scarce resource and I hate when it's used for dead space I can't get rid of or use productively. Alt-drag is the way to go.
Vertical space should not be scarce. 16:9 or worse display is the root issue. Framework has a 3:2 and it is lovely though a bit glossy for my taste. Portrait external is another option.
Both on my main machine at home and in the office, I have a 32" 2560*1440 screen and a 24ish 1080p (they work out more it is the same pixel pitch) beside it, which I often effectively use as three portrait screens, sometimes using FancyZones so that the divide on the 32 isn't right in the middle. The setup is a bit tall when sat thought, potentially causing neck strain, but I tend to use the standing desk in up position so that isn't an issue. Tall screens are much nicer than landscape IMO.
Re: Closing a 30 pixel gap between native and web
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don’t think Windows is ever going to be left behind I do, but not for reasons most people think about. The Windows 11 UI/UX is trying to emulate MacOS. Clearly, Microsoft is giving the finger to people that use Windows because it's not MacOS. I can't wait for Windows 12 to happen and all the UX things I hate about MacOS get implemented in Windows. Might as well start training my muscle memory to hit the Windows k…
Few years back everyone was complaining Apple was copying Microsoft by going all in on flat UIs. While at MS I did run into the ever present problem of many designers only using MacOS so their designs would basically say "do what MacOS does!"[1] which entailed a lot of work by developers to change the default Windows UI widget behaviors to look like MacOS. Thankfully when I got one of those requests across my desk I…
I can't stand flat UIs.
Not having buttons be obviously clickable/touchable is a bug, not a feature, as is having UI elements blend in with each other.
I personally use WindowBlinds to make my Windows 10 UI look like Windows 2000. I love having a taskbar that has 3D buttons. I like not having multiple windows from a single program getting grouped together.
Windows 2000 (or Windows XP with the Classic theme enabled) was the best UI Windows ever had. It's been downhill ever since.