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Harrison Bergeron (1961)

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Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#121

Post by josephcsible »

geysersam wrote: post #94
josephcsible wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Do you have a source for this claim? Sounds incredible.

Here's one: https://stanforddaily.com/2022/04/07/stanford-and-cal-profes...

> the reformed framework attempted to remedy achievement gaps by urging public schools to remove certain accelerated math tracks from middle school education. Boaler’s guidelines have become a basis for a statewide push to move these classes, specifically Algebra I, out of middle school.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#122

Post by LambdaComplex »

egypturnash wrote: post #21

Captive to our smartphones, distracted constantly by an endless succession of oh-so-important notifications for trivial things. Who in modern life does not feel a little like Harrison Bergeron with his federally-mandated thought-train-interrupting earpiece? And who among us cannot sympathize with Albert Brock, The Murderer? https://www.readkong.com/page/the-murderer-by-ray-bradbury-8...

Complaints of this type go back over a century. Before smartphones, people complained that nobody was socializing because they were all busy reading newspapers. I think it's safe to call this argument tired at this point.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#123

Post by MichaelCollins »

llanowarelves wrote: post #5
hcurtiss wrote: post #3

Beauty, and human attraction to beauty, is impossible to overcome. While sometimes informed by culture, attributes like symmetrical faces are desirable across all cultures. And those attributes are often powerfully informed by genetics. Absent absurd handicaps like in the story, people with those attributes will have better lives. Life is not fair. In some ways it’s better that it’s not. Our perception of beauty, and…

Even various animals prefer attractive people. It's pretty crazy

I've noticed that large energetic dogs seem to respect large and strong people more, and show disrespect to smaller people.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#124

Post by sireat »

I recently asked twenty college sophomores whether they knew OF Kurt Vonnegut.

Not a single person knew.

These were twenty bright young persons double majoring in CS and Business Administration.

Now there is a disclaimer: the students were mostly from Eastern Europe. However they speak fluent English. In fact I envy how well they carry on their day to day conversations.

To add fuel to the fire Vonnegut was widely translated in former Soviet Union. My librarian colleagues almost had a stroke when I told them this story.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#125

Post by woodruffw »

dublin wrote: post #114
mikewarot wrote: post #98

I've known that something like this story exists forever, it seems, but upon reading it all I can think about is the woke-ism that seeks to cripple society by making every little non-conformity a problem, and not celebrating differences. It made me really angry... took a moment to wind down. Diana Moon Clampers -- the perfect social justice warrior.

Quoted post unavailable.

Vonnegut, to his credit, died long before he would have had to hear someone accuse him of writing a short story about “wokeism.”

The story is about envy. Vonnegut said as much whenever he was asked about it: it’s directly inspired by his own feelings of creative inadequacy. Shoehorning it into some execrable 2022 political statement is embarrassing.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#126

Post by MichaelCollins »

MajimasEyepatch wrote: post #119
aasasd wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always fun seeing USians trying to shoehorn every variation of human behavior into the one-dimensional classification. (Seeing other Westerners confusedly borrow the same dichotomy is also entertaining, as it often fits poorly to them and they surely should know better.)

> USians We have a word for this in English: Americans.

He knows. It's bait and you swallowed it. This is the part where you get a lecture about Central and South America.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#127

Post by MichaelCollins »

woodruffw wrote: post #125
dublin wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Vonnegut, to his credit, died long before he would have had to hear someone accuse him of writing a short story about “wokeism.” The story is about envy. Vonnegut said as much whenever he was asked about it: it’s directly inspired by his own feelings of creative inadequacy. Shoehorning it into some execrable 2022 political statement is embarrassing.

> The story is about envy.

So is most 'wokeness.' Envy and power.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#128

Post by softcactus »

I always interpreted this work as a satire of Ayn Randian style objectivism/exceptionalism. It's funny that in school we were taught that it was a criticism of communism/socialism when I think it's really a criticism of the popular perception of communism/socialism.

The underlying premise is a misunderstanding of equity that persists today. The idea behind leftist ideologies is not to handicap the brilliant and able, but to extend the material buffers that allow brilliance to flourish to everyone:

“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”

But at the time and today, people (leftists included) thought that leftist ideology must have been based in envy or some inferiority complex. Harrison Bergeron is that 'meta-ideology' taken to its extreme.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#129

Post by tigeba »

geysersam wrote: post #94
josephcsible wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Do you have a source for this claim? Sounds incredible.

The district where my kids attend have suggested this on a few occasions. Frequently advanced math is the target. The district has hired a consultant that is charged with professional development for educators in the district. Among other things, the consultant makes claims that tracking is "... a racialized system of exclusion.” and compares it to Apartheid on multiple occasions. The rationale is explicit: "The biggest problem with tracking–by a million miles — is the equity issue." In my opinion combatting inequity in this way, by eliminating a resource that students need to succeed, is an example of “leveling down” or "Harrison Bergeroning" the situation if you will.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#130

Post by swayvil »

geysersam wrote: post #40
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #4

This story had an amazing effect on me as a child and before it begins, yes I have a disability (though a so called invisible disability - I have type 1 diabetes and epilepsy). It isn't that we should turn a blind eye to the disabled, as many use it as a parable for. Many disabled do need extra help, but that help comes in the form of lifting up, not pushing down those who are able. The able should be encouraged, in…

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

Consider the bloodsoaked frenzy that surrounds any celebrity who steps out of line.

Consider, in social media, our quaint tradition of "voting". Suppressing the smart and stupid alike. Enforcing conformity to the norm above all.

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