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The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

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Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#121

Post by secthrowaway »

jhuckestein wrote: post #96

Interesting. Perhaps the comment about not being able to learn from people who don't have these clearances also applies to highly knowledgeable individuals in any field that have trouble listening to people with less information or understanding of matters. Perhaps it even explains how years of "knowing more" can lead to resistance to change (the kind that I've found to be characteristic of bad professors or some peo…

And the corollary, just because people have access to sensitive information means they know all of the sensitive information.

"Well I have a clearance and can tell you this is how it is" is probably the mark of somebody who just wants to win the debate but doesn't know squat.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#122

Post by secthrowaway »

nosequel wrote: post #115
philwelch wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought polygraphs didn't work. Or is there classified information showing that they do?

Whether the machine works or doesn't work is irrelevant if they convince you during the poly that it does work. I had one, and the technician was far more intimidating than the machine. If I had something to hide, by the end he would have gotten it out of my I'm sure.

Right, often they are simply used to indicate when a line of questioning is stressing out the subject and to continue on that line.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#123

Post by count »

ultrasaurus wrote: post #88
count wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no formal guidance (that I'm aware of) about revealing a secret, top secret, Q, or L clearances, nor is there formal guidance on revealing that you are SCI eligible. Each SCI compartment and SAP has its own unique rules about what you can and cannot reveal (some SCI compartments mere existence is classified at the SCI level itself, meaning you can't say you hold that clearance to anyone who doesn't hold that…

>you can't say you hold that clearance to anyone who doesn't hold that clearance I assume that there's a secondary signal that can be disclosed that everyone who has clearance can recognize?

I'm not aware of one. In some cases, the information will just be disclosed, and you'll be forced to sign the paperwork and be 'read in' after the fact. As long as you have a legitimate need to know, that's fine.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#124

Post by count »

littlebird wrote: post #109
count wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being the President, this is purely speculation, but I would guess: There are many things the President probably does not have unfettered access to. There are many, many, many trainings and shit you go through that reinforce that seniority and superiority do not in themselves constitute the 'need to know' for classified information. There should NOT be someone who has access to everything, as the entire point of…

There exist a number of "super users," I believe their role is to minimize redundancy of effort. Even if someone had access to everything, the amount of data generated far exceeds what one person can handle.

I'd imagine such super users get Name/Codeword/Purpose briefs to cross reference, rather than access to the information itself, as clearance to know is not a need to know.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#125

Post by lwhi »

I think there's a big danger here.

Of course the idea of being initiated into a secret circle is extremely attractive. It appeals to our sense of ego, intrigue, romantic notions of the other. It's the stuff of novels and films .. it's the beginning of a great story. The personal advice given sounds good. But the dangerous part for me is the inference that we need to consider that those above us necessarily know best, and we should, by necessity, capitulate control.

The fact that such layers of information, access to information, and access to power exist should not supplant the fact that this system embodies one single way the world can be ordered.

What would happen if everyone had access to everything?

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#126

Post by gujk »

JonnieCache wrote: post #100
buro9 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went through UK security clearance and can tell you that the process is to determine whether your personal/sexual habits are likely to make you vulnerable to blackmail. Not so that the government or agency can blackmail you. That is: If you happen to be into BDSM and this is something you keep extremely private, then what would you rather give up? Your personal privacy or a piece of sensitive data? So the interview…

This is mainly why they killed Turing.

Turing died because his lifestyle was illegal and he was being punished for it, not because it was a secret.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#127

Post by gujk »

teyc wrote: post #8

If anyone has seen the comedy series "Yes, Prime Minister", they'll often understand how a leader can be manipulated by his mandarins through selective disclosure of uncorroborated information, present consequences couched in politically unacceptable terms, force the hand by setting the agenda. This is especially true if dissenting opinion is filtered before it gets handed to the President etc. I apologize if the fol…

Is there any evidence that the Iraq War was anything but intentional by the President? Secrecy was used to mislead the public, but the entire Administration was hired based on their commitment to finish GHW Bush's war.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#128

Post by gujk »

sethg wrote: post #59
throwaway31 wrote: post #11

I used to be in the intelligence field, and I held a top secret SCI clearance for about five years. What most people don't realize about classified information is that it's not the information itself that's so sensitive; it's the means via which such information is acquired that must be protected. If this were not so, targets could simply sidestep our intelligence collection vectors. I rarely dealt with any classifie…

You don’t even need that much justification. http://www.samefacts.com/2002/12/secrecy-in-government/shhhh... [quote] When I was young and irresponsible, I worked for the Justice Department, analyzing drug policy. In that capacity, I was put through the full security mumbo-jumbo and received a Top Secret clearance and, on top of that, clearances for various very highly taboo Codeword categories.... Having been cleared…

That's not secrecy to protect national security, that's secrecy to protect corruption and oppress citizens.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#129

Post by kaybe »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #16

There's a flip side to this as well: as a voter, I don't know what information my elected leaders have when making decisions. In theory, with a small amount of secrecy needed to make diplomacy and security function, this makes sense. The problem is that it's not actually working in practice. There are so many un-elected people who have jobs for life and also the ability to classify broad swaths of information that th…

As a government you'd probably want some insane theories floating around so you can hide the less insane but real secrets inbetween - after all, conspiration theorists are rarely taken serious.

An example in the UFO case: You tested your new amazing stealth plane, but something went wrong and there are reports. However, if they fit the common UFO sighting tropes, chances are the whole issue is ignored/misinterpreted, leaving the secrets you want to stay hidden.

Re: The mental gymnastics involved in having a high security clearance.

#130

Post by mdc »

secthrowaway wrote: post #82
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #16

There's a flip side to this as well: as a voter, I don't know what information my elected leaders have when making decisions. In theory, with a small amount of secrecy needed to make diplomacy and security function, this makes sense. The problem is that it's not actually working in practice. There are so many un-elected people who have jobs for life and also the ability to classify broad swaths of information that th…

I don't disagree with your fundamental point, but I think you misunderstand how things become classified. It's always either a) due to how the information was collected b) something derived (citing) a piece of classified information. So a special collection platform may collect material at some high level of classification, anything that references that information (it could be 100,000 reports) are also all classifie…

It's not politicians certainly, but it's often unaccountable bureaucrats stamping something classified for questionable reasons. The conventional wisdom is that nobody ever got fired for classifying data, and the administration may classify a lot of information that is simply embarrassing.

The Intellligence Squared US podcast did a nice job of covering both sides of this issue in their June 8th, 2011 podcast on freedom of the press: http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/past-debates/

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