Harrison Bergeron (1961) • Hacker News Board

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#71

Post by mmmpop » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

superb-owl wrote: post #8

This story is typically seen as a critique of socialism, but it's more likely that Vonnegut intended it as a critique of critiques of socialism [1]. Vonnegut himself was a socialist [2], and the absurdist tone of the story reinforces this idea. [1] https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/197545/03882696bf... [2] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/04/kurt-vonneguts-socialism-fr...

I always found the story to be a bit silly and hamfisted if intepreted as a sort of a critique of government enforcement of "equity" and given Vonnegut's politics, I find this to be the most reasonable take.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#72

Post by LargoLasskhyfv » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

greenie_beans wrote: post #69

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #60

/me thinks reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_selection_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakistocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_men…

i think this: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-c...

Could be. Tabbed for later. Thx.

edit: I have that site bookmarked already, and browse there from time to time.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#73

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

geysersam wrote: post #40

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #4

This story had an amazing effect on me as a child and before it begins, yes I have a disability (though a so called invisible disability - I have type 1 diabetes and epilepsy). It isn't that we should turn a blind eye to the disabled, as many use it as a parable for. Many disabled do need extra help, but that help comes in the form of lifting up, not pushing down those who are able. The able should be encouraged, in…

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

People certainly interpret it as a straw man, but if it was that, I'm really not sure why the author would have decided that Harrison would be declaring himself king, getting a beautiful queen, appointing an aristocracy, being weirdly and unnecessarily violent or literally flying.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#74

Post by kikokikokiko » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #46

geysersam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Brazilian guy here. In Brazil, state of Sao Paulo, some years ago the government wanted to implement a gifted students program, and it was DEFINITELY shut down for "politically correct" reasons, no "cutting costs" involved. But anyways, Brazil is not known worldwide as a smart celebrating country. Carnaval celebrates asses, not brains.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#75

Post by yamtaddle » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

Parmenidea wrote: post #17

My hot take is that this story is highly overrated. It’s boring, poorly written, and lacks nuance. The reason people remember it fondly is (1) everyone loves Vonnegut because he’s funny, so they don’t want to criticize it and (2) everyone read this story in middle school and are blinded by nostalgia.

I'm with you. I think it's one of Vonnegut's weaker works. The only reason I'd recommend someone read it is because it comes up a lot.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#76

Post by mmmpop » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

godshatter wrote: post #14

swyx wrote: post #6

i dont know Vonnegut's politics but i have always wondered if this story was secretly a fairytale for the right-leaning. it paints wanting equality as intensely evil, holding back the best of humanity. which, yes, true in communist regimes, but you see echoes in some less well considered laws and policies in modern life. i am afraid to like, or even publicly discuss, the story because of what it might say about me.

This depends on what you mean by "equality", which leads directly into the "equality of opportunity" vs. "equality of outcome" debate.

Striving for equality of opportunity is righteous and good. Forcing equalities of outcome starts getting gross pretty quickly.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#77

Post by mmmpop » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:23 PM UTC

Parmenidea wrote: post #17

My hot take is that this story is highly overrated. It’s boring, poorly written, and lacks nuance. The reason people remember it fondly is (1) everyone loves Vonnegut because he’s funny, so they don’t want to criticize it and (2) everyone read this story in middle school and are blinded by nostalgia.

As mentioned in this thread already, it's almost certainly a parody of what an unsophisticated person thinks government forced "equity" measures would look like in a dystopian future. But in my opinion, if Vonnegut were alive today, he may find a little less humor in it seeing how far we've come in making his silly fiction closer to reality.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#78

Post by falcolas » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:27 PM UTC

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #60

/me thinks reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Basis_of_a_Backward_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_selection_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakistocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_men…

Not everything related to learning requires perfect efficiency. Fiction is a fantastic way to take dry principles and make them relatable. Read those wikipedia articles and Harrison Bergeron if you really want to get the most out of those factual articles and fictional story.

To put it another way, productivity is not - nor should it be - the milestone by which we evaluate our lives.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#79

Post by z7 » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:27 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #46

geysersam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've always felt the story to be a bit of a straw man. Don't we always celebrate and idolize ability, beauty etc?

There have been school districts lately that have been getting rid of advanced math classes in the name of equality.

Re: Harrison Bergeron (1961)

#80

Post by aasasd » Tue, Sep 27, 2022, 3:30 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #53

aasasd wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always fun seeing USians trying to shoehorn every variation of human behavior into the one-dimensional classification. (Seeing other Westerners confusedly borrow the same dichotomy is also entertaining, as it often fits poorly to them and they surely should know better.)

Is this a criticism of Vonnegut?

The only problem I might have with Vonnegut is that I could use more of his novels. Some of his books easily derail into author's explicit commentary on things—which is fun too in its own way, but leaves less space for more subtle jabs in the course of an actual plot.