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Good Coffee Is Now Bad

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Re: Good Coffee Is Now Bad

#121

Post by nordsieck »

bombcar wrote: post #91
nordsieck wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t coffee but I took it as “you used to be able to go to small shop and pay more and get good coffee, but now everything is better across the board and Dunkin’s has decent coffee and many small shops are no better”. > Which happens all the time when the (hipster/prosumer/whatever) takes off. > Same thing with cameras - any standalone camera used to be better than a phone camera, but the phone cameras got bette…

If the theory is correct (that some coffee shops now are basically serving the same thing as McDonalds or whatever) then I could see the complaint. When phone cameras were very bad, you were guaranteed to get a better camera with any standalone one; even a point-and-shoot Walmart special. No thought was really necessary beyond price. But now that phone cameras are better, you have to work at it to find a worthwhile s…

> When phone cameras were very bad, you were guaranteed to get a better camera with any standalone one; even a point-and-shoot Walmart special. No thought was really necessary beyond price. But now that phone cameras are better, you have to work at it to find a worthwhile standalone camera (and that camera is much more expensive, relatively).

I don't think that this analogy stands up quite so well - if your camera has removable lenses, it'll be better than a phone. It will be expensive, although given the price of phones these days, the phone is actually probably more expensive than a beginner mirrorless. But analogies are known to be fragile when stretched.

> Or another way of reading it is "it used to be easy to be a snob! Just pay more and you're guaranteed to get some good shit!" and now that 'trick' doesn't work.

> I think there's a deeper thing here, which is the "desire for secret knowledge", almost a form of gnosticism or something. We want to "know a secret that isn't widely known" even if it doesn't actually really help us any.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

I mean, it's completely foreign to me - I only care about being or getting better than yesterday. I don't care at all about how good I have it in relation to other people. But I understand that that is very motivating to a lot - perhaps most - people.

Re: Good Coffee Is Now Bad

#122

Post by nikau »

cush wrote: post #84
twawaaay wrote: post #49

> My theory on good and bad coffee, oddly, can be summed up by something they talk about in Top Gun: Maverick, about how it isn’t the plane but the pilot flying it that matters. This is the first thing I learned on barista course (I am not a barista, I got the course as a birthday present because I care a lot about coffee). As of now there exists no way to get a great coffee without having somebody with taste and kno…

Shops are opening left and right with specialty beans, great atmosphere, pastries, and the $30k La Marzocco espresso machine, yet the baristas have no training, can't steam milk, and pull shots that taste like battery acid. The reason the coffee costs $6 a cup is to pay the pilot

Its often more nuanced than that, for example often cafes will get free machines and service if they agree to only use a particular brand of beans.

Great for the cafe owner, but typically its mediocre beans like vittoria or similar which are stale by the time they get to the cafe and a barista can only do so much with them.

So that then dictates the quality of baristas you get, any baristas with pride in their work will try and find cafes with better quality ingredients, so you are left with mediocre baristas than can just pump out okish coffee.

Re: Good Coffee Is Now Bad

#123

Post by twawaaay »

rstuart4133 wrote: post #120
twawaaay wrote: post #49

> My theory on good and bad coffee, oddly, can be summed up by something they talk about in Top Gun: Maverick, about how it isn’t the plane but the pilot flying it that matters. This is the first thing I learned on barista course (I am not a barista, I got the course as a birthday present because I care a lot about coffee). As of now there exists no way to get a great coffee without having somebody with taste and kno…

> As of now there exists no way to get a great coffee without having somebody with taste and knowledge to actually check the coffee, diagnose the problem and then fix it. This resonates with me. I have a home machine. Sometimes it produces coffee perfection, most times not. There aren't really a lot of variables: the bean and its age, the grind size and the grind time. So it sounds simple. But the bean and it's age c…

> Was the barista course useful?

It very much was. I already knew a lot about making espresso but the course taught me a lot of small tips and tricks. It also gave me better understanding of end to end process and what is and what is probably not as important. In the past I would be spending a lot of time on gimmicks (like a grinder that could grind to exact weight) which I learned are completely unnecessary for the most part. The course was meant for people who will be working as baristas and so it was not oriented on getting best coffee but rather teaching you the process and how to make various drinks. The other students were not super interested in coffee but the teachers were.

> It is a lot of effort - so I don't do it as often as I should.

I pull about 2-3 double shots for myself every day and probably, on average, one another for my wife and daughter.

I got in a habit of observing every single shot I make. I weigh the grounds that came out of the grinder, the espresso, the time it took to pull it as well as the profile (I look at the weight vs time profile in my head). I also look at the bottom of the naked portafilter during first couple seconds to see how well I have distributed it so that I don't start correcting in response to incorrect distribution. I have been doing it for long enough that I don't have to think about it anymore. Over time you also learn to intuitively know what kind of correction you need to introduce and how large magnitude to fix the problem.

The result of this is that I get a very good shot probably 50-70% of the time. Which I am happy with, it is very difficult to get consistent results at home when you just pull couple of shots every day.

Re: Good Coffee Is Now Bad

#124

Post by Sebb767 »

asdadsdad wrote: post #114
iddan wrote: post #60

Sorry to break it to you, but there is such thing as good coffee. In Tel Aviv, Rome, Vienna, Athens, Berlin, Tokyo, Kyoto and Warsaw when I went to specialty coffee I’ve got supreme coffee: roasted correctly, reach in flavour and creating a lasting good feeling. Unfortunately I can’t say that about other places. For instance in London I couldn’t get a single good cup of coffee (and i tried them all, really). I agree…

From this list, TLV is probably the best. Most of Europe is still stuck in espresso land, shitty coffee.

There's a reason watered-down espresso is called Americano ;)

Re: Good Coffee Is Now Bad

#125

Post by hattmall »

deebosong wrote: post #50
hattmall wrote: post #33

It's not wrong, but the same truth from 40 years ago is still relevant, you need to know where to go for a good cup of coffee. Just because a place is expensive or gourmet has no real significance. The best coffee near me is at a mediocre diner that mostly serves overnight prison guards. Next best is a gas station.

I like your style. As someone who isn't particularly invested in finding great coffee, but does appreciate a good cup if it's not out of my way, what qualities do you look for in a fantastic cup of coffee?

Nothing special just flavor, strength and the consistency of those qualities. The best I've determined is from someone whose job requires them to make coffee but also basically to drink it as well. E.g. the overnight gas station attendant and diner waitresses. They want to make good coffee because they will also be drinking it. Of course you can find someone who fits that description and their taste buds are completely shot out or they just have very different preferences too, so compatibility matters.

Re: Good Coffee Is Now Bad

#126

Post by ubermonkey »

ehnto wrote: post #54
ubermonkey wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true -- and I'm sure you mean Hoffmann -- but "better at home" is easier to accomplish if you prefer brewed or filter coffee. If you want an espresso-based drink, cost or kitchen space can make it much easier to just cultivate a relationship with a good shop (ideally, one that doesn't even OWN blenders).

What you want is a Moka Pot, very cheap, perfectly capable. It's how espresso was brought to many countries, including Australia. Migrating Italian's/europeans would bring their Moka Pot's with them, and out of those communities espresso would be in the cafes and the rest is history. Especially here in Australia, where there is nothing but espresso coffee or tea.

Moka pot coffee is its own thing. It is NOT the same as a good shot of espresso pulled from a proper espresso machine. I know people say this, but it's a different flavor profile even with the same beans and careful attention to grind. I really dislike it, in fact.

If I can't have a proper espresso, I'll drink pour over.

Re: Good Coffee Is Now Bad

#127

Post by ehnto »

ubermonkey wrote: post #126
ehnto wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you want is a Moka Pot, very cheap, perfectly capable. It's how espresso was brought to many countries, including Australia. Migrating Italian's/europeans would bring their Moka Pot's with them, and out of those communities espresso would be in the cafes and the rest is history. Especially here in Australia, where there is nothing but espresso coffee or tea.

Moka pot coffee is its own thing. It is NOT the same as a good shot of espresso pulled from a proper espresso machine. I know people say this, but it's a different flavor profile even with the same beans and careful attention to grind. I really dislike it, in fact. If I can't have a proper espresso, I'll drink pour over.

It is the same process, but variance in execution would get you different tastes, as in time and pressure variances compared to an esspresso machine. Moka ppts are also not very uniform in their execution. Heated water is forced through a cup of grounds at high pressure though, just like an espresso machine. Pour over is a very different process to espresso, though it might suit your preference compared to what you get from your Moka pot.

Re: Good Coffee Is Now Bad

#128

Post by ubermonkey »

ehnto wrote: post #127
ubermonkey wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moka pot coffee is its own thing. It is NOT the same as a good shot of espresso pulled from a proper espresso machine. I know people say this, but it's a different flavor profile even with the same beans and careful attention to grind. I really dislike it, in fact. If I can't have a proper espresso, I'll drink pour over.

It is the same process, but variance in execution would get you different tastes, as in time and pressure variances compared to an esspresso machine. Moka ppts are also not very uniform in their execution. Heated water is forced through a cup of grounds at high pressure though, just like an espresso machine. Pour over is a very different process to espresso, though it might suit your preference compared to what you g…

It's only the "same process" by a gross oversimplification -- ie, yes, you put ground coffee and hot water together with some pressure.

Moka pots provide very little in the way of control vs. a proper espresso machine, and at best produce only about 20% of the pressure. The result is a VASTLY different beverage.

By your logic, an Aeropress is also "the same process" since it's forcing water through grounds under pressure, but nobody would call that espresso, either.

I adore proper espresso, but I have never enjoyed Moka pot coffee.

I also adore pour-over coffee, but no one would mistake any filter-coffee process for espresso.

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