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Learning Is Remembering

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Re: Learning Is Remembering

#181

Post by fwbex »

I think the software that is promoted here is actually detrimental to "remembering".

The core thesis here "Learning is intertwined with memory" was indeed hashed out by psychologists in the 1970 (Craik and Lockhart); It was precisely these two who put forth the "Levels/depth of processing" idea, which emphasized the importance of the encoding process. A more "meaningful" encoding enhances memory.

The author not so secretly wants to sell us an app for spaced practice. And yes, spaced practice is indeed important and has been well studied in memory research. But I feel that the tool that they are selling is the antithesis of good learning, especially if you want to check "Quantum Mechanics" off of your list. If I got it right, the main difference of their app to Anki or any other flashcard program is that you do not need to spend so much time drafting your questions because an AI can do it for you. But this is precisely where deep encoding would come into play. You need to decide how to phrase that question and write it down! You need to draft that answer! The classic crib sheet phenomenon.

Regarding computerized support for such human "deep learning" I can recommend "concept mapping" tools (VUE from Tufts or ihmc CmapTools). But a pen and paper is great, too.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#182

Post by aappleby »

p-christ wrote: post #180
aappleby wrote: post #173

I am utterly baffled that no response in this thread so far has taken issue with the statement "As you probably know intuitively, it won't work." For me, this _does_ work and I have proven it many many times over the years by adding entire categories of technical knowledge to my repertoire. And not superficially, either - I get paid very well to do things professionally that I taught myself by reading Wikipedia. If m…

Maybe you already know quite a lot about physics? Or maybe you have an unusually large working memory and didn't go far enough down the wikipedia hole until you got lost? The working memory limit explained in the article must apply to you unless you have some sort of a very special form of photographic memory

That's the thing though, I never get "lost".

I've never studied quantum mechanics aside from snippets I picked up through pop science articles or such, so it's not like I started with a big body of knowledge already in place.

It's hard for me to imagine what feeling "lost" in Wikipedia would be like. Maybe reading some article about a complex historical battle would do it - lists of people with important names would probably become a jumble without really clear identifiers of who did what and why.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#183

Post by [deleted] »

p-christ wrote: post #180
aappleby wrote: post #173

I am utterly baffled that no response in this thread so far has taken issue with the statement "As you probably know intuitively, it won't work." For me, this _does_ work and I have proven it many many times over the years by adding entire categories of technical knowledge to my repertoire. And not superficially, either - I get paid very well to do things professionally that I taught myself by reading Wikipedia. If m…

Maybe you already know quite a lot about physics? Or maybe you have an unusually large working memory and didn't go far enough down the wikipedia hole until you got lost? The working memory limit explained in the article must apply to you unless you have some sort of a very special form of photographic memory

[deleted]

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#184

Post by mcguire »

cloogshicer wrote: post #116

There is a difference between remembering something (like a fact) and a deep understanding of a concept. Let me give you an example in programming: I sometimes have to google for the names of functions I've already used a hundred times. Sometimes extremely simple functions (just a while ago it was list.size() in Java), only because I can't remember the name of the function, but of course I understand the concept - th…

On the other hand, to the point of the article, you can't get a deep understanding of a concept without remembering the concept, other concepts that it relates to, and how.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#185

Post by biofox »

3pt14159 wrote: post #85
necessary wrote: post #69

As someone who has been using Anki for the past 4 years to learn Japanese and now Chinese, I've recently found that the initial "learning" step is not that hard. (i.e., given 辞書, I remember "dictionary") What is hard is keeping the content I've learned, _learned_, for more than a day. So now I'm wondering, is my initial "learning" process wrong? Since definitions are fairly simple and I find them easy to remember at…

I learn a lot. The way I've learned best for me is to mimic children. Especially small children. They focus intently at seemingly incomprehensible complexity. Then they play with the small fragments they can get their hold on. "ba-ba-ba-ba" when they're learning to speak. They play. They combine two (or more) different things they're interested in into a single experiment which we think of more as play. Mushy food? I…

Arguably, the whole point of play is learning.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#186

Post by p-christ »

aappleby wrote: post #182
p-christ wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you already know quite a lot about physics? Or maybe you have an unusually large working memory and didn't go far enough down the wikipedia hole until you got lost? The working memory limit explained in the article must apply to you unless you have some sort of a very special form of photographic memory

That's the thing though, I never get "lost". I've never studied quantum mechanics aside from snippets I picked up through pop science articles or such, so it's not like I started with a big body of knowledge already in place. It's hard for me to imagine what feeling "lost" in Wikipedia would be like. Maybe reading some article about a complex historical battle would do it - lists of people with important names would…

Ok how about this more difficult experiment to prove the hypothesis:

I'm going to send you a wikipedia page written in chinese. You're going to read it once. For every chinese word you're allowed to look up the meaning on google translate once as you read. You're not allowed to do any other form of learning besides reading.

Do you think in this case you'd also not get "lost"?

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#188

Post by missingdays »

jimmaswell wrote: post #137
cloogshicer wrote: post #116

There is a difference between remembering something (like a fact) and a deep understanding of a concept. Let me give you an example in programming: I sometimes have to google for the names of functions I've already used a hundred times. Sometimes extremely simple functions (just a while ago it was list.size() in Java), only because I can't remember the name of the function, but of course I understand the concept - th…

> google for the names of functions Copilot is a lifesaver here. I almost never have to google function names anymore because it just fills them in for me, while usually generating exactly the code I wanted around it.

If only there was a way to know which methods the object has. We could call such concept something like auto-discovery or magic-completion.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#189

Post by aappleby »

p-christ wrote: post #186
aappleby wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing though, I never get "lost". I've never studied quantum mechanics aside from snippets I picked up through pop science articles or such, so it's not like I started with a big body of knowledge already in place. It's hard for me to imagine what feeling "lost" in Wikipedia would be like. Maybe reading some article about a complex historical battle would do it - lists of people with important names would…

Ok how about this more difficult experiment to prove the hypothesis: I'm going to send you a wikipedia page written in chinese. You're going to read it once. For every chinese word you're allowed to look up the meaning on google translate once as you read. You're not allowed to do any other form of learning besides reading. Do you think in this case you'd also not get "lost"?

I think I would get lost, but only due to the vocabulary and translation load and the "once" restrictions - not due to the content of the article itself.

In practice I end up reading the same wiki articles dozens of times as I go up and down the link trees, with each pass connecting various ambiguous ideas together.

If I could annotate the pages with arbitrary amounts of translation notes as I read them, I could probably get through the article though it would take a very long time.

Re: Learning Is Remembering

#190

Post by karatinversion »

gernb wrote: post #167
Bakary wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To learn a word or character, you need to be able to understand it immediately and be able to form a sentence with it without delay (at least not more than the occasional "uh..."). Remembering the meaning after some fiddling is not good enough. That has to be achieved by actually practicing the language, either via listening, speaking, or writing. Anki is there to help after that step by keeping you refreshed with th…

A friend who is amazingly good at languages made the analogy, you can't read about how to play a musical instrument and get better at playing it. You actually have to play it. Anki might help some, maybe reading, but speaking and listening require actually speaking and actually listening.

The analogy can be taken too far; if you can recognise a note by sight on sheet music, you’ve learnt everything there is to directly memorise in paying an instrument. All the rest is practice. This is not the case in language learning. A language which is not closely related to one you already know has tens of thousands of words, the meanings of which can’t be deduced from other things. There is no use to doing listening practice if you do not understand almost all the words being used; you will be stuck looking them up one at a time in a dictionary. It is also very difficult to correctly pick out words you don’t know in a language you are new to.
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