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Adversarial Collaboration

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Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#141
post #107
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I am glad that culture is moving away from rewarding confident certain statements that are simply untrue.

Citation needed. Also - relevance? The tagline being questioned here is— “People don't change their minds” — the problem with which is not that it’s “simply untrue” but that it requires qualification, e.g. in the prose of the linked article it’s written: “To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters”

> Citation needed.

Citation for personal preference? Or for claim that currently confidence is rewarded more then accuracy?

> the problem with which is not that it’s “simply untrue” but that

The statement is untrue, because people do change minds. People change minds also about stuff that matters. They dont do it often, but they do it.

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact that's how many get into the elite group and jockey for position within it. "Think about what it takes to claw your way into America’s elite strata. Unless you were born into the upper-middle class, your surest route is to pursue an elite education. To do that, it pays to be exquisitely sensitive to the beliefs and prejudices of the people who hold the power to grant you access to the social and cultural capi…

> for those students who come to Yale, we expect them to be versed in issues of social justice. We encourage them to be vocal when they see an opportunity for change in our institution and in the world. Would you want anything less in an academic institution? That's the entire point of places of higher learning.

[deleted]

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#143
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you taken a look at Wolframs ToE? I found it pretty intriguing.

He's about half a dozen giant steps from a theory making qualitative predictions matching the physics of our universe, but not others . His only advantage is that his starting point is more foundational than pretty much anyone else, but that also makes it very unlikely that he'll ever develop something with predictive power. My current set of candidate pet theories are all based on a vaguely similar foundational noti…

> My current set of candidate pet theories are all based on a vaguely similar foundational notion that the physical universe isn't made up of "matter on top space-time", but rather that there is a single space-time-matter fabric.

> For example, to create matter, space-time must be affected (curved). Or to put it another way, all particles have mass-energy (spacetime curvature) because they are space-time-matter curvature. The idea is to unify QM and GR by making fundamental particles have geometric properties that satisfy GR at all scales.

I also think this is the "obvious solution". Came to the same mental picture of "space-time-energy quants" long ago.

But I guess the main problem is to formulate this in a meaningful mathematical way. (Physics always needs some "stage" on that "things" can happen. GR did not change that; it made the "stage" just more dynamic, and alone that proved to be very hard to formulate in math, which is all about static relations between objects).

BTW: Something that I found very inspirational, and what makes very much sense to me, was this here:

http://www.platonia.com/research.html

(Mr. Barbour has also some pop-science books on his topics).

The basic idea is that there is nothing besides pure geometry on the fundamental level.

That makes sense because to me as what else could be there at all? Anything that is needs to come form somewhere. Only pure structure, something that "just happens" given the idea of "things in a space" could imho resolve this problem. (Which is also quite in line with Wolframs ideas, btw).

That leads to the idea that things "are" because they "must be" alone from the fact that you try to describe their relations.

Contrary to that all physics concentrate on things that aren't "pure". Almost everything in physics is "afflicted" by some "units". But how do you explain the "units"? You can't! They're a given. So imho, even the smallest set of them can't be fundamental. Only pure "proportions", from which "structures" and "shapes" emerge, make sense on the fundamental level. Because such structures "just are", as they're mathematical objects. (Mathematical objects and structure "exist" without being created; nor they can be ever changed or destructed. That makes "very good material" for the fundamentals of a universe, imho).

Also this way to look at things explains one of the most weird and quasi not understood parts of our world, namely time.

Time is a big mystery. Mr. Barbour's ideas were to me the first explanation ever that didn't produce more questions than answers.

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hobby is to look for a physics theory of everything (ToE). I have virtually no chance at succeeding at this, but it's fun reading through random junk on ArXiV. I noticed something similar: You can find papers by clearly crazy people that have nuggets of good ideas in them. Odd bits of mathematics they reference might be an interesting rabbithole to go down, even if it ultimately leads nowhere. The whole thing remi…

I got a good laugh from your comment here. Imagine it from my perspective. Someone (you) is suggesting they search for a ToE in their spare time, and they’re labeling someone else as clearly crazy . ;) All in good fun. I greatly enjoy the sentiment of your comment and it’s parent that great ideas can come from anywhere. At the risk of creating a segue into controversial topics, I think this plays a huge part of why i…

An analogy is that one can walk in the right direction for an awfully long way before getting stuck at the end of a valley, staring up a proverbial cliff. Someone walking parallel to you on a ridge might be nearby the whole time, but avoid being stuck.[1] Anyone studying AI/ML would know about getting stuck in local minima, and having to essentially restart training to shake things loose. Same thing.

My theory is that physics is stuck in a local minima where it's not sufficient to change just one, or even two or three fundamental things to get unstuck. That's too big a leap via traditional incremental publishing of new theories. Any one change to the status quo won't work, and is rejected. Multiple changes are too complex, and might need to have occurred too early in the timeline. It simply might not occur to people that the whole industry took a run turn... 100 years ago.

This is why I like crazy papers. They make you reconsider fundamental notions, the type that were in textbooks decades ago and are seen as foundational and unquestionable.

[1] This literally happened in New South Wales. For decades(!) nobody could cross the Blue Mountains, until Blaxland, Lawson, and Wentworth tried walking on the ridge tops instead of the valleys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1813_crossing_of_the_Blue_Moun...

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#145
post #58

Kahneman hedges just a bit in his talk: " To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters." Trying to explain the small number of people who do change their minds, David McRaney has an interesting book out called How Minds Change.[0] And I imagine there are people who change minds, even outside his model. People who change their minds when it doesn't seem to help them…

Assuming a good-faith discussion, I tend to ask people "can you tell me why it is important to you that X is true?" (or false, or whatever) these days. Of course I should also be open about why a particular view is important to me in those situations. It seems to be the most effective way maintaining a productive conversation when disagreeing on things, regardless of whether we'll agree in the end.

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#146
post #107
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I am glad that culture is moving away from rewarding confident certain statements that are simply untrue.

Citation needed. Also - relevance? The tagline being questioned here is— “People don't change their minds” — the problem with which is not that it’s “simply untrue” but that it requires qualification, e.g. in the prose of the linked article it’s written: “To a good first approximation, people simply don't change their minds about anything that matters”

[deleted]

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#147

> The power of reasons is an illusion. The belief will not change when the reasons are defeated. The causality is reversed. People believe the reasons because they believe in the conclusion. This is one of my pet peeves with even casual conversation. Someone goes "I don't like X, because Y." You point out Y is false, and the response is "Well, I still don't like X". It used to annoy me because wanted to help people n…

It’s actually even worse. For many people, disagreeing with them makes you their enemy, emotionally at least.

So you’ve mostly just been alienating people while thinking you’re trying to help them.

Most people have conversations to feed their emotional needs for social interactions and validation, not to learn anything.

We’re interesting animals.

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And if someone knows books or discussions about this topic I want the names. Its such a strong force in social structures. Stating your truth is rarely possible, you better sing along and talk down in smaller sub groups later.

Read anything Charlie Munger writes on the topic. He said something to the effect of “A year in which you fail to kill at least one of your cherished ideas is probably a failed year.” Anyway, he has a lot to say on the subject and on incentives and human psychology broadly.

stuff like psychology of misjudgement ?

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#149
post #57
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone is a member of a group, it is almost not worth listening to their arguments, especially arguments in support of views held strongly by that group. Who isn't a member of a group? We're all members of a number of groups. It's refreshing that Kahneman honestly admits that he doesn't change his mind either, and his tastes were formed when he was relatively young. He's not putting himself above the rest of hu…

Maybe I'm uncommon in this aspect, but I don't feel like I'm a member of many groups. I'm not religious, but don't really consider myself an atheist. I'm not for any particular party. I don't care about sports. I'm Canadian, but don't live there and don't feel like I belong there either. I suppose you could say I'm part of the group of Caucasian males by birth or part of the group of software engineers by trade, but…

That just means you’re being willfully blind to the groups, not that you aren’t a member.

Even saying you’re !group makes you explicitly a member of the !group group!

Re: Adversarial Collaboration

#150
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And if someone knows books or discussions about this topic I want the names. Its such a strong force in social structures. Stating your truth is rarely possible, you better sing along and talk down in smaller sub groups later.

https://youtu.be/QWkWeZOQZI8 Jordan Peterson’s zebra story

I think peterson is crazy but some of this story was fun
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