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Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

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Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#71

Post by negamax »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #69
negamax wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the narrative I want to address. Because I have seen this first hand. When the stocks were booming. Old people left. They didn't took another job. They left. Some cashed out $x millions. Lot of indiscriminate hiring happened to puff up the leak. Companies were flushed with money. But that was a failing strategy. Companies can continue to go down that path, it will have further diminishing returns

I mean, I did that. I left Google and cashed out. I'm not old, but I'm mid-life. I'm not able to retire. I just couldn't handle the bullshit anymore. But now I'm working again (for less $) because I need the money :-) But TBH the hiring frenzy was happening long before that. When I left (end of last year), I heard Google had hired something like half its staff just during the pandemic period. Not sure if I believe th…

There you go. I have done something similar. And place was puffing up with out of college new hires. Everyone getting pat on the back. I stand by my assertion, companies will have to get the old people back unless they are happy to have years of over investment with little returns, increased uncertainty around release cycles

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#72

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

tobyjsullivan wrote: post #53
mabbo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shopify, hired like mad during the pandemic boom knowing full-well that they would end up laying off a bunch of those new hires once things got "normal" again. You should read Tobi's post about what happened. That's not how it was. https://news.shopify.com/changes-to-shopifys-team# > Before the pandemic, ecommerce growth had been steady and predictable. Was this surge to be a temporary effect or a new normal? And s…

> If the bet had paid off… There’s the rub. The parent’s suggestion was that, probably, the new hires weren’t told anything along the lines of “Hey, this is a crazy gamble and it might not work out. Sign here to play.” Yes, it’s implied in “startups”. But companies as large as shopify aren’t generally hiring people from the startup scene anymore. People are (were?) leaving good, stable jobs to go there. Only they kno…

> "Hey, this is a crazy gamble and it might not work out. Sign here to play."

That's a gross mischaracterization, and it weakens your argument. It wasn't a "crazy gamble." It was a calculated risk, one that I think even in hindsight looks like a reasonable one to make at the time.

I think the overall question is whether it would have been better for those jobs never to have existed in the first place, rather than having existed for a year or so before being eliminated.

And, in truth, I think it's a very fair question - many people might value a higher level of stability, even if it results in overall lower total wages in the long term. For me, though, since I am in an industry that is, overall, growing and not showing any signs of slowing down in the medium-to-long term, I'm fine with taking a job even if I can get laid off at some point in the future. Spotify was very generous with severance IMO, and I don't think I'd have any problem finding another job within 3 months.

Again, I totally understand not everyone shares my view, but also other folks should understand that even as an employee I don't think that getting laid off is some sort of unforgivable crime.

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#73

Post by throwawaysleep »

mabbo wrote: post #47
sbarre wrote: post #7

This part at the end of the article is probably the real true nugget in here: > But implicit in that risk, Mr. Nayyar points out, is a lot of downside. Many executives thought, “but didn’t say out loud, that if demand disappeared or changed course – sometimes even slightly changed course – those people we brought on, it might not make sense to have them around any more. … You’re just a number on the page; whatever ha…

> Shopify, hired like mad during the pandemic boom knowing full-well that they would end up laying off a bunch of those new hires once things got "normal" again. You should read Tobi's post about what happened. That's not how it was. https://news.shopify.com/changes-to-shopifys-team# > Before the pandemic, ecommerce growth had been steady and predictable. Was this surge to be a temporary effect or a new normal? And s…

Do you believe him? I certainly don’t believe any of my leaders.

One of my orgs had layoffs. Similar story.

Now we are hiring like mad again.

Truth is that they just jumped like spooked horses and laid off piles of people to keep investors happy for the quarter. That’s all you are to these people.

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#74

Post by throwawaysleep »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #60
mikrl wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once I looked into SRED and connected the dots, whenever I heard hypercapitalist talk at work I’d have to bite my tongue.

SR&ED is just a nice-to-have break on taxes, no?

I’m not sure of the details, but I worked for a company where SR&ED reporting and grant collecting determined product features.

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#75

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

kart23 wrote: post #65
dehrmann wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shopify is publicly traded and is an e-commerce platform. It isn't dependent on VC money to run, and neither are its customers. What happened was people shifted discretionary spending to e-commerce during covid, and between things reopening, having a fully-stocked home gym, and inflation, they cut back on buying stuff. Wealthsimple might have funding issues (I'm not sure), but it lost a lot of use because again, its…

…shopify is losing more than 1 billion a quarter.

That's a pretty lopsided characterization. Yes, they had big losses in Q1 and Q2 2022, but they had nearly 3 billion in earnings in 2021. Large companies will often swing to big losses from big profits when there is a big macro shift, which is exactly what happened to Shopify. That's meaningfully different from a company that has had a sea of losses since inception, especially when those losses grow proportionally with revenue increases.

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#76

Post by unity1001 »

sbarre wrote: post #7

This part at the end of the article is probably the real true nugget in here: > But implicit in that risk, Mr. Nayyar points out, is a lot of downside. Many executives thought, “but didn’t say out loud, that if demand disappeared or changed course – sometimes even slightly changed course – those people we brought on, it might not make sense to have them around any more. … You’re just a number on the page; whatever ha…

Its more likely that they calculated that the spike in ecommerce that was caused by people quarantineing in their houses would not last, but it would still remain higher than how it was. (And its likely that it did, when you adjust it to the economy).

But nobody seems to have anticipated the Ukraine war and the sancitons hitting back the West itself, exacerbating inflation in the US and creating record inflation in Europe.

That really kicked the balls of the tech industry. And judging from national currencies being used more in international trade now, its likely that the old environment with infinite cash and little to no inflation in the US will not return. Since all the dollars that are not being used by countries that are now trading in their own currencies seem to flow back to the US, causing inflation.

Its likely that this may end the high cash influx, bloated stock share value economy and make the old format non-workable. But in the long run when the inflation and the prices settle, ecommerce should still be a profitable activity. Except that now companies would be valued on what actual revenue they are making, instead of the elusive and unpredictable potential value into the next decade which may or may not come.

In short, less WeWorks, more companies with an actual business model that works immediately or in visible future.

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#77

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #45

I interviewed at a startup once in Canada. They offered 40K per year (Canadian) and asked late working hours right in the interview process. No thanks...

There are McDonalds in the US that offer 40k (USD) to entry-level, no-experience workers. With such an insulting salary proposal as you experienced, it's amazing that Canada has any startups at all.

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#78

Post by unity1001 »

mjr00 wrote: post #4

This isn't a uniquely Canadian problem at all, it's just Canada experiencing the pain of the wider tech sector. Ultimately, it's the same issue as what's happened (and happening) in the US: the VC fun money dried up, and it's no longer cool to be an unprofitable business with a lot of "growth potential". Now tech leadership is being forced to balance a budget and figure out a path to profitability instead of just per…

> the VC fun money dried up, and it's no longer cool to be an unprofitable business with a lot of "growth potential"

Yep. Bye bye infinite cash injection to the economy without inflation.

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#79

Post by unity1001 »

dehrmann wrote: post #30
mjr00 wrote: post #4

This isn't a uniquely Canadian problem at all, it's just Canada experiencing the pain of the wider tech sector. Ultimately, it's the same issue as what's happened (and happening) in the US: the VC fun money dried up, and it's no longer cool to be an unprofitable business with a lot of "growth potential". Now tech leadership is being forced to balance a budget and figure out a path to profitability instead of just per…

Shopify is publicly traded and is an e-commerce platform. It isn't dependent on VC money to run, and neither are its customers. What happened was people shifted discretionary spending to e-commerce during covid, and between things reopening, having a fully-stocked home gym, and inflation, they cut back on buying stuff. Wealthsimple might have funding issues (I'm not sure), but it lost a lot of use because again, its…

> Shopify is publicly traded and is an e-commerce platform. It isn't dependent on VC money to run

But it still floats on the inflated stock values like a majority of the big tech companies.

Re: Layoffs at Canadian tech startups

#80

Post by tobyjsullivan »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #72
tobyjsullivan wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the bet had paid off… There’s the rub. The parent’s suggestion was that, probably, the new hires weren’t told anything along the lines of “Hey, this is a crazy gamble and it might not work out. Sign here to play.” Yes, it’s implied in “startups”. But companies as large as shopify aren’t generally hiring people from the startup scene anymore. People are (were?) leaving good, stable jobs to go there. Only they kno…

> "Hey, this is a crazy gamble and it might not work out. Sign here to play." That's a gross mischaracterization, and it weakens your argument. It wasn't a "crazy gamble." It was a calculated risk, one that I think even in hindsight looks like a reasonable one to make at the time. I think the overall question is whether it would have been better for those jobs never to have existed in the first place , rather than ha…

I don't agree that's a gross mischaracterization. For reference, the exact wording from Tobi Lutke is:

> Was this surge to be a temporary effect or a new normal? And so, given what we saw, we placed another bet: We bet that the channel mix - the share of dollars that travel through ecommerce rather than physical retail - would permanently leap ahead by 5 or even 10 years.

In other words, it was a gamble that an unprecedented leap in global commercial behaviour was happening. Was there some reason to believe it could? Absolutely. Were the chances still extremely small? Also, absolutely.

And when you're "thinking in bets", as Shopify clearly is, you only risk what you can afford to lose. Other people's financial security is basically free for Shopify (a bit of severance in the worst case scenario).

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