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Tradition is Smarter (2018)

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Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#81

Post by yCombLinks »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #78
yCombLinks wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if there are (extremely overstated) medical benefits. Cutting off pieces of a babies genitals is wrong. Full stop.

Not arguing your point, but ending a comment with "... Full stop." doesn't make you somehow more right, it just broadcasts that you are uninterested in hearing any arguments or data that are contrary to your opinion. Which is good, I guess, to let us know that we shouldn't waste our time.

Yes, that was my point. This is an issue I won't budge on.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#82

Post by m4nu3l »

Coincidentally I had debates recently about traditions. In particular about Monarchies.

While traditions can be there for reasons and it's OK to follow some traditions, all traditions should be questioned. The amount of knowledge we have today is not comparable with what we had in any previous time in history. The article actually proves that. We now know about chronic cyanide poisoning to a level that was unknown even to the population that developed traditions to avoid it.

Also traditions can:

- Have lost the original problem they were developed to address.

- Always been the wrong choice (but probably without giving a significant disadvantage to a population).

- Be irrelevant as better methods are now available.

In short the Monarchy serve no real purpose in modern societies. Even as a symbol, it's a very bad symbol.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#83

Post by paulryanrogers »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #30
klyrs wrote: post #2

Well, let's go back to worshipping the sun, then. Who knows, if we don't, it might not rise tomorrow... Or, just maybe, progress itself is a tradition that deserves its own reverence. Sometimes, Chesterson's fence was erected by a shepherd who no longer uses the field that you'd rather play soccer on. It was useful in its day, but no longer.

Well, let's go back to worshipping the sun, then. Who knows, if we don't, it might not rise tomorrow... I think we'd be much better off being un-ironic sun-worshipers than hollowed-out atomised atheists. And I see that as someone who is sadly in the latter category.

> I think we'd be much better off being un-ironic sun-worshipers...

Better off worshipping unintelligent and non-existent beings, and all the foolish memes that inevitably accrete with magical thinking?

> hollowed-out atomised atheists.

Hollowed of what? Mostly harmful traditions many of which were designed to entrench unearned power and influence?

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#84

Post by drekipus »

criley2 wrote: post #72
nehal3m wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not equivalent in most cases (not all female genital mutilation is performed the same way and I cannot fathom a medical reason for any sort). But that doesn't mean they aren't in the same general category when defined as surgical alterations of people's genitalia performed for religious or cultural reasons without any medical necessity. A medically required circumcision when reasoned and self-chosen is an alt…

It's horrifying that these are even compared. The foreskin is just some skin and absolutely not required to experience sexual pleasure or climax. But for women, they cut their clitoris out , fundamentally altering their ability to have sex forever. You cannot compare this. There is no equivalence here. IMO, female genital mutilation is comparable to male gelding --- removal of the entire penis. Both are designed to r…

FGM also can be just cutting some skin (the inner labia) and it is comparable to circumcision.

The function of the inner labia is to help keep in moisture and lubricant, very much the exact same function and role of the foreskin.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#85

Post by drekipus »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #67
mikkergp wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitively proven? I can’t wait to see that randomized controlled clinical trial. FWIW the language I see used is compelling evidence, where are you getting definitively proven from?

FWIW all I had to do was Google "male circumcision hiv clinical studies", it's not that hard to find: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4233247/ From the introduction: "Three randomized controlled trials (RCTs) in sub-Saharan Africa have shown that adult male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV acquisition in men by about 60% [1-3]."

There is two factors to this:

1. Less sex 2. Less moisture kept on the penis during sex.

But I don't think permanently altering a baby's penis is worth the trade off of being able to have sex with people who suffer HIV.

Maybe in Africa where there's nothing else, but not in a world with better medical services

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#86

Post by drekipus »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #71
nehal3m wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not equivalent in most cases (not all female genital mutilation is performed the same way and I cannot fathom a medical reason for any sort). But that doesn't mean they aren't in the same general category when defined as surgical alterations of people's genitalia performed for religious or cultural reasons without any medical necessity. A medically required circumcision when reasoned and self-chosen is an alt…

Except, ironically enough, male circumcision is the perfect example of something that was done for "traditional" religious reasons, but for which now there is ample medical support for it. For example, circumcision is extremely common in the US, despite the fact that it is relatively very rare for it to be done for religious reasons (only about 2-3% of the US population is Muslim or Jewish). It is done because the me…

The biggest misconception about traditions is that people just randomly decided to do it and punish those who don't follow.

The most probable case is that traditions, such as male circumcision were done for a particular purpose and ritualised into a traditional to share and continue that process.

It's only in more modern ages where we said that rituals aren't enough and we need to think of medical reasons for it as well.

Considering how much of the mind is an enigma it's arms race to find out positive reasons of why we do certain traditions before we get rid of them completely from not understanding them.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#87

Post by drekipus »

I posted this in a comment thread but I feel like it's worthy of its own.

The biggest misconception about traditions is that "people just randomly decided to do it and punish those who don't follow."

The most probable case is that traditions, such as male circumcision, were done for a particular purpose and ritualised into a tradition to share and continue that process.

It's only in more modern ages where we said that "rituals aren't enough" and we need to think of medical reasons for it as well. (Cue, studies in Africa, etc)

Considering how much of the mind is an enigma, it's an arms race to find out positive reasons of why we do certain traditions before we get rid of them completely without understanding them.

50 years (?) of the scientific method up against 50,000 years of human stories and primal survival.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#88

Post by trention »

77pt77 wrote: post #75
trention wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using this as an example of "tradition being wrong" in the context of the linked article is literally peak autism on top of the fact that our "common sense" understanding of physical processes being wrong (is it even wrong at the level of abstraction we work on?) says nothing about our understanding of social phenomena.

> literally peak autism Thanks. That completely invalidates everything I wrote. Super effective technique you have there.

Way to skip past the last two-thirds of the sentence. Do you have anything meaningful to say or just wasting my time?

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#89

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

m4nu3l wrote: post #82

Coincidentally I had debates recently about traditions. In particular about Monarchies. While traditions can be there for reasons and it's OK to follow some traditions, all traditions should be questioned. The amount of knowledge we have today is not comparable with what we had in any previous time in history. The article actually proves that. We now know about chronic cyanide poisoning to a level that was unknown ev…

> In short the Monarchy serve no real purpose in modern societies. Even as a symbol, it's a very bad symbol.

TBH I'm sort of baffled by this stance given the events around Queen Elizabeth II's passing.

To be clear, I'm not a monarchist, and I share the opinion that their continuation in modern society is, well, weird, to say the least. A modern constitutional monarch holds no real power, and often times holds less power than normal people (e.g. not being able to express any political opinion). For example, I wouldn't wish being a member of the UK Royal Family on my worst enemy - yes, you are rich and nominally "famous", but you essentially have no freedom: your job in life is pre-ordained, and your life is basically constantly under the microscope of an adversarial press.

But, while I may not fully understand it, it's clear to me that a monarch can serve a real purpose in modern societies. Many, many millions of people felt an affinity and dare I say a love for QEII, and I think these traditions serve a unifying force in the UK, or at least in England. The UK monarch and royal family are essentially the ultimate "branding" exercise. Plus, since the UK has basically separated any real power from the monarch, it means that the monarchy's sole purpose is to serve as a "neutral" symbol of the state, something that pure democracies often lack.

To give a good analogy: I don't really understand rooting for professional sports teams either (George Carlin has a great bit about this "The players change, the coaches change - you're basically rooting for laundry"), but clearly tons of people have a deep, strong emotional bond to their "favorite team". It's also clear to me that, even if I don't understand it that well, many people can feel the same way about their monarch, and that can serve an important purpose.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#90

Post by LAC-Tech »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #83
LAC-Tech wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's go back to worshipping the sun, then. Who knows, if we don't, it might not rise tomorrow... I think we'd be much better off being un-ironic sun-worshipers than hollowed-out atomised atheists. And I see that as someone who is sadly in the latter category.

> I think we'd be much better off being un-ironic sun-worshipers... Better off worshipping unintelligent and non-existent beings, and all the foolish memes that inevitably accrete with magical thinking? > hollowed-out atomised atheists. Hollowed of what? Mostly harmful traditions many of which were designed to entrench unearned power and influence?

Yeah, exactly!

Imagine of instead of typing all that negative conspiracy theory rubbish on HN, you were outside intermingling at your local sun temple.

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