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Tradition is Smarter (2018)

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41–50 of 174 posts

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#41
post #2

Well, let's go back to worshipping the sun, then. Who knows, if we don't, it might not rise tomorrow... Or, just maybe, progress itself is a tradition that deserves its own reverence. Sometimes, Chesterson's fence was erected by a shepherd who no longer uses the field that you'd rather play soccer on. It was useful in its day, but no longer.

Progress itself is a tradition, but a relatively recent one, and not one deserving reverence. At least, not any more.

Don't tear down progress until you can say why we make progress in the first place.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#42
post #29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask for links to the research that shows this? Not arguing, just curious.

Pick up any book on Quantum Mechanics.

I don’t think that’ll be relevant to what the article is discussing. It’s about group vs individual traditions. We can’t refute those points by waving quantum mechanics.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#43
post #29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask for links to the research that shows this? Not arguing, just curious.

Pick up any book on Quantum Mechanics.

That's probably the only (if not most) unintuitive experimental knowledge we've come across, and we still don't have a good explanation for it today. No idea how that makes tradition "invariably wrong".

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#44
post #15

Chesterson's fence is about understanding: tradition may be smarter than you, maybe not, but it would serve well to understand the reasons why it's a tradition before disposing with it.

well and good. the issue I have is that when no one can be found that knows anything about why it was put there in the first place. every day I have to climb over that damn fence to get groceries. at what point do we tear it down to see what happens? in software, I would rather tear it down and find out what it was there for. most developers I've worked with in the past couple decades operate in an atmosphere of cons…

If you have good tests, the reason is often much more clear.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#45

What about circumcision? Is it all about forming group bonds?

Not being circumcised meaningfully increases the odds of transmitting and contracting certain diseases, by around 50%ish (though reduces some, interestingly enough) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2907642/] and increases the risk of UTIs significantly (by about 75%, albeit still not super common). [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6119846/]

Consider a world without antibiotics, and a UTI can become life threatening. Most STDs would be similarly restrictive to reproductive potential, as men are much less at risk than women, and many women would be taking quite a gamble having sex with someone known to have an STD.

Even today, PID can cause sterility in women and is not uncommon.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#46
post #15

Chesterson's fence is about understanding: tradition may be smarter than you, maybe not, but it would serve well to understand the reasons why it's a tradition before disposing with it.

well and good. the issue I have is that when no one can be found that knows anything about why it was put there in the first place. every day I have to climb over that damn fence to get groceries. at what point do we tear it down to see what happens? in software, I would rather tear it down and find out what it was there for. most developers I've worked with in the past couple decades operate in an atmosphere of cons…

> in software, I would rather tear it down and find out what it was there for.

if you don't have regression testing there's a chance you don't find out until something disastrous happens

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#47
post #23

Related: Tradition Is Smarter (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22037749 - Jan 2020 (101 comments) Also: Chesterton's Fence - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31553665 - May 2022 (13 comments) Chesterton’s Fence (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30070757 - Jan 2022 (142 comments) Chesterton’s Fence: A Lesson in Second Order Thinking - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22533484 - March 2…

Out of curiosity, why has the original article title been edited ?

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#48
post #2

Well, let's go back to worshipping the sun, then. Who knows, if we don't, it might not rise tomorrow... Or, just maybe, progress itself is a tradition that deserves its own reverence. Sometimes, Chesterson's fence was erected by a shepherd who no longer uses the field that you'd rather play soccer on. It was useful in its day, but no longer.

> Sometimes, Chesterson's fence was erected by a shepherd who no longer uses the field that you'd rather play soccer on. It was useful in its day, but no longer. I mean, that's the point of the metaphor: before knocking down the fence, figure out what purpose it served in the first place. It's not a question of "don't ever knock down a fence" or "always knock down fences".

> It's not a question of "don't ever knock down a fence" or "always knock down fences".

Exactly my point. "Tradition is smarter than you" implies that I won't be able to out-think it. When, in fact, tradition is overturned quite regularly and quite often with extremely good reasoning.

Always doing the same thing is dumb -- be that holding or throwing out tradition. Mindless adherence to tradition is just as stupid as mindlessly discarding tradition. Tradition is not smarter than me, tradition is mindless. Critical thinking wins.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#49
Rarely have I had such a negative reaction to a blog post, for 2 main reasons:

1. The author seems to "mysticize" tradition, basically taking the approach "sometimes you just have to take things on faith". Which I think is complete nonsense. If you look at the traditions that "work", like the manioc processing given in the article, this is basically just the scientific method at work, but where we've lost the documentation. That is, people in the past surely did do trial and error to find out what processing works best, e.g. someone likely boiled the tapioca first to see that it lost its bitter taste, and then later others probably determined if they further processed it that it had fewer side effects (e.g. less bloating) that had long term benefits. But the important point is we should be glorifying the scientific method of trial and error here, not the "losing the documentation" part that the author wants us to do. As a close analogy, many many flight rules and regulations are born out of past tragedies, where something went wrong, we analyzed the root cause, and then came up with rules to prevent those causes. If we suddenly lost all the documentation and history as to why we built those rules in the first place, we would call it "tradition", but we would still be worse off compared to when we had a deeper, rational understanding of why we created those rules.

2. As others have pointed out, if "tradition is smarter", we'd also still be foot-binding in China, female circumcision wouldn't be questioned as the mutilation that it is, and slavery would be an acceptable form of division of labor. There are tons of traditions that are total shit, and were just propagated because they served to reinforce the power structures that existed at the time.

Traditions deserved to be questioned. Those that are worth keeping should stand up to rational inquiry.

Re: Tradition is Smarter (2018)

#50
post #23

Related: Tradition Is Smarter (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22037749 - Jan 2020 (101 comments) Also: Chesterton's Fence - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31553665 - May 2022 (13 comments) Chesterton’s Fence (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30070757 - Jan 2022 (142 comments) Chesterton’s Fence: A Lesson in Second Order Thinking - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22533484 - March 2…

Out of curiosity, why has the original article title been edited ?

Because of the linkbait "you" (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). The site guidelines ask to remove linkbait: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait" - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

We like to do minimal edits to titles, so taking a substring is often best. I was feeling proud of myself for figuring out how to do that in this case, until I noticed that the previous submission had figured out the same thing.

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