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Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

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211–220 of 270 posts

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People did talk, but they were silenced and the media did not report on it: http://raylahr.com/ntsb-clears-up-twa-800-conspiracy-theory.... > No fewer than four serious professionals within the investigation made specific allegations of evidence theft or tampering: Linda Kunz and Terrel Stacey of TWA, Jim Speer of TWA and ALPA, and Hank Hughes of the NTSB. Their allegations were taken seriously. Kunz and Speer were s…

This is always the way it is. "It would be impossible to cover up, people would talk." "People did talk." "Those people were lying."

[flagged]

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#212
post #73

Isn't there a statute of limitations? 1996 was 26 years ago.

"the statute of limitations runs from the date the litigant obtains actual knowledge of the facts"

Which will (eventually) place the defendants here in the position of arguing that the plaintiffs should have known that the coverup was a lie.

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not just claiming circumstantial evidence. The plaintiff says they have FOIA documents describing confiscated Navy radar tapes that show an object striking TWA 800. Damning if true, but a lot hinges on documents we haven’t seen.

Those documents would be circumstantial evidence because they only show that the author claimed that there were radar tapes showing something hit TWA 800. If the radar tapes still exist and can be presented as evidence, that would still be circumstantial evidence because they only show what the radar measured. The meaning of those measurements require interpretation to come to a conclusion that a missile hit TWA 800.…

> If the radar tapes still exist

Read the lawsuit, they have the tapes.

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time Russia was invaded: the time they helped a genocidal maniac try to conquer Europe, 80 years ago. Last time Russia’s neighbors were invaded by them: well, obviously, now.

That genocidal maniac is who unites the EU today. If you no longer blame Germany for Hitler you can't in any kind of good faith blame Russia for Soviet Union's pact with Hitler.

I’m fine blaming the current genocidal maniac: Putin.

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#215
post #23

The lawsuit[0] is worth a read and goes into quite a bit of detail about the claimed timeline. Roughly: * Upgraded missile defense systems were deemed a national security priority around this time * Navy ships compatible with these systems were 5 years out, so… * Live missile testing happens at a compatible land base in New Jersey, under congested airspace * Multiple civilians report seeing missile tests in & around…

I feel terribly for these families, but the evidence presented in this filing is circumstantial at best: it adds nothing to contradict the overwhelming evidence (including the recovered fuselage) that nothing collided with the aircraft. It’s easy to see ghosts everywhere, and sometimes they really are there. But TWA 800 probably isn’t one of those cases.

> overwhelming evidence

Well yes, of course it would look overwhelming if all the contradictory evidence and testimony was buried. Not to mention any evidence they fabricated to support their cover-up.

You're really missing the main point of the lawsuit.

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#216
post #23

The lawsuit[0] is worth a read and goes into quite a bit of detail about the claimed timeline. Roughly: * Upgraded missile defense systems were deemed a national security priority around this time * Navy ships compatible with these systems were 5 years out, so… * Live missile testing happens at a compatible land base in New Jersey, under congested airspace * Multiple civilians report seeing missile tests in & around…

I'm really not convinced, the linchpin of the missile argument is that the CIA and FBI were put in charge to cover up a missile shootdown, but it's pretty well documented that they were put in charge because it was a suspected terrorist attack. Everything else is circumstantial evidence at best. I'm certainly interested in what shakes out of this court case, but as of right now it just seems like a typical conspiracy…

> they were put in charge because it was a suspected terrorist attack.

Good thing the US government doesn't have a long history of using terrorism as an excuse to expand its own power beyond all reasonable limits.

Oh wait...

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#217
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's the part of his conclusion relevant to this new development This quote isn't even remotely relevant to the new developments and it's extremely obvious you didn't even take 30 seconds to skim the docket. They've obtained significant new evidence through FOIA litigation that shows the Navy's Aegis missile system missed its intended target (a test drone) and hit TWA 800 instead. One of those pieces of evidence…

> > Here's the part of his conclusion relevant to this new development > This quote isn't even remotely relevant to the new developments and it's extremely obvious you didn't even take 30 seconds to skim the docket. It's completely relevant, because it characterises the motivations behind the filing of a time-wasting, straw-clutching lawsuit by those desperate to believe some conspiracy. The singular problem with any…

> straw-clutching

If that's how you characterize the plaintiff's recent acquisition of Navy radar tapes (previously seized by the FBI) that show a missile hitting the plane and then spiraling away I have to seriously question your ability to objectively evaluate the facts of the case.

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#218
post #23

The lawsuit[0] is worth a read and goes into quite a bit of detail about the claimed timeline. Roughly: * Upgraded missile defense systems were deemed a national security priority around this time * Navy ships compatible with these systems were 5 years out, so… * Live missile testing happens at a compatible land base in New Jersey, under congested airspace * Multiple civilians report seeing missile tests in & around…

I feel terribly for these families, but the evidence presented in this filing is circumstantial at best: it adds nothing to contradict the overwhelming evidence (including the recovered fuselage) that nothing collided with the aircraft. It’s easy to see ghosts everywhere, and sometimes they really are there. But TWA 800 probably isn’t one of those cases.

Circumstantial evidence is still evidence, evidence by implication. Direct evidence is that which is directly asserted, like eyewitness statements, recordings, or recovered items.

Almost all of the evidence the NTSB accumulated for TWA 800 is circumstantial evidence, apart from things like the flight recorders, the eyewitness statements and physically recovering the aircraft. Even the proverbial phrase "smoking gun" would be circumstantial evidence of a murder, not direct proof.

The NTSB's circumstantial evidence is quite thorough, including literal experiments the Board performed. It's mostly quite strong, and it explains the nearly-irrefutable direct evidence (e.g. cockpit recordings, the state of the recovered instruments at the time of the accident).

Also, direct evidence can sometimes be the most unreliable. Eyewitness statements, for example, are notoriously flawed, as our memories are not perfect hard disk dumps, but are malleable. Even in this case, it's possible that the FBI & CIA or even the NTSB itself "poisoned" the direct testimony of the hundreds witnesses on shore, at sea or even in the air. (My own bias is that I have much more respect for NTSB investigators.)

The NTSB's report is nearly persuasive to me, other than the ignition source. Regardless, I do think the NTSB's recommendations & subsequent FAA action have made air travel safer as a result of their work (again, almost all of it circumstantial).

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel terribly for these families, but the evidence presented in this filing is circumstantial at best: it adds nothing to contradict the overwhelming evidence (including the recovered fuselage) that nothing collided with the aircraft. It’s easy to see ghosts everywhere, and sometimes they really are there. But TWA 800 probably isn’t one of those cases.

> overwhelming evidence Well yes, of course it would look overwhelming if all the contradictory evidence and testimony was buried. Not to mention any evidence they fabricated to support their cover-up. You're really missing the main point of the lawsuit.

I’m not missing that. My point is that the actual evidence is pretty threadbare, and vaguely gesticulating about a conspiracy does not actually conjure stronger evidence.

Is it possible a missile really did blow up TWA 800? Sure. But I am not convinced by arguments that are effectively appeals to my latent distrust for the CIA, much less arguments that boil down to fill-in-the-dots conspiracy pattern matching.

Re: Citing new evidence, families sue feds, Raytheon, Lockheed over 1996 TWA crash

#220
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Here's the part of his conclusion relevant to this new development > This quote isn't even remotely relevant to the new developments and it's extremely obvious you didn't even take 30 seconds to skim the docket. It's completely relevant, because it characterises the motivations behind the filing of a time-wasting, straw-clutching lawsuit by those desperate to believe some conspiracy. The singular problem with any…

> straw-clutching If that's how you characterize the plaintiff's recent acquisition of Navy radar tapes (previously seized by the FBI) that show a missile hitting the plane and then spiraling away I have to seriously question your ability to objectively evaluate the facts of the case.

If you knew anything about radar, you'd understand that the chasm between what would be needed to show what you think it shows, and what it actually shows is pretty vast.
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