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Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

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Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#41

Post by dnissley »

ftl64 wrote: post #17
lowkey_ wrote: post #6

For anyone unaware, earlier this year, Kazakhstan faced protests over gas prices (it was a tipping point, there's a lot of wealth inequality) and this president requested the help of Russian security forces to enter the country and help quell riots, and they ended up killing rioters [1]. Most of my Kazakh friends were rooting for the rioters, wanting a more free Kazakhstan, while one friend close to the government wa…

Things aren't actually as clear-cut as you say. While protests started out peacefully things quickly escalated into violence, especially in Almaty. Most notably, armed bandits captured the city's airport, burned most of the government buildings, tried to assault multiple law enforcement agency offices, tried to go live on multiple TV channels, robbed ATMs, etc. The government has promised a large-scale investigation…

A good account about why it isn't so clear cut: https://www.palladiummag.com/2022/02/24/what-happened-in-kaz...

In a video from January 5th, people can be seen snatching up rifles offloaded by a truck. Some were likely convinced on the spot to grab one of the firearms being handed out, but who was responsible for acquiring them?

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#42

Post by walrus01 »

mcfedr wrote: post #23
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they are kind of 'Surrounded' by Russia and China, there is no other route from Kazahstan to the rest of the world Look at the map, the only other border they have is with a litany of failed states with zero infrastructure or freedom.

Russia has infrastructure and freedom?

It has infrastructure, if we mean railways, electrical grid, etc. Freedom, obviously not so much.

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#43

Post by lossolo »

exabrial wrote: post #18

Step 1: Break ties with Russia. Until then, everything is double-speak

They are already doing that, they are pivoting to China, in 2023 they are leaving substitute of NATO in east, in which Russia plays a big role, they denied helping Russia with war in Ukraine and after newest China-Kazakhstan meeting it's obvious that China will be a new patron of Kazakhstan and also guarantee their territorial integrity.

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#44

Post by ansgri »

exabrial wrote: post #18

Step 1: Break ties with Russia. Until then, everything is double-speak

Step 0: get all those tens (hundreds?) of thousands of mostly highly-educated professionals fleeing the military draft to Kazakhstan, Armenia and Georgia (mostly). Even though Russian government says IT workers are exempt, everyone that can flee the country and haven’t done that earlier, runs now. It could be a huge opportunity for these countries’ economies if managed well.

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#45

Post by vhgyu75e6u »

lossolo wrote: post #43
exabrial wrote: post #18

Step 1: Break ties with Russia. Until then, everything is double-speak

They are already doing that, they are pivoting to China, in 2023 they are leaving substitute of NATO in east, in which Russia plays a big role, they denied helping Russia with war in Ukraine and after newest China-Kazakhstan meeting it's obvious that China will be a new patron of Kazakhstan and also guarantee their territorial integrity.

Translation: we are sticking to whoever allows us to remain in power and keep our status as is.

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#46

Post by ansgri »

walrus01 wrote: post #42
mcfedr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has infrastructure and freedom?

It has infrastructure, if we mean railways, electrical grid, etc. Freedom, obviously not so much.

Infrastructure in largest cities, especially Moscow, is world-class. The public transportation is (was?) one of the best globally, most services are digital, banking is very modern with good mobile apps and instantaneous operations. And I really miss the reliable centralized hot water supply and heating.

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#47

Post by kevingadd »

ftl64 wrote: post #17
lowkey_ wrote: post #6

For anyone unaware, earlier this year, Kazakhstan faced protests over gas prices (it was a tipping point, there's a lot of wealth inequality) and this president requested the help of Russian security forces to enter the country and help quell riots, and they ended up killing rioters [1]. Most of my Kazakh friends were rooting for the rioters, wanting a more free Kazakhstan, while one friend close to the government wa…

Things aren't actually as clear-cut as you say. While protests started out peacefully things quickly escalated into violence, especially in Almaty. Most notably, armed bandits captured the city's airport, burned most of the government buildings, tried to assault multiple law enforcement agency offices, tried to go live on multiple TV channels, robbed ATMs, etc. The government has promised a large-scale investigation…

Escalation into violence does not discredit a revolution while it IS extremely regrettable and perhaps discredits the people involved. If escalation into violence was able to discredit a revolution, the regular every-day violence inflicted on the civilian population by bad cops, etc would discredit the government or at least policing.

At the point where rioters are being killed instead of merely arrested it's hard for me to look negatively at the rioters choosing to strike out with violence of their own. They aren't using the tools and backing of the state to oppress.

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#48

Post by throwoutway »

dnissley wrote: post #41
ftl64 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things aren't actually as clear-cut as you say. While protests started out peacefully things quickly escalated into violence, especially in Almaty. Most notably, armed bandits captured the city's airport, burned most of the government buildings, tried to assault multiple law enforcement agency offices, tried to go live on multiple TV channels, robbed ATMs, etc. The government has promised a large-scale investigation…

A good account about why it isn't so clear cut: https://www.palladiummag.com/2022/02/24/what-happened-in-kaz... In a video from January 5th, people can be seen snatching up rifles offloaded by a truck. Some were likely convinced on the spot to grab one of the firearms being handed out, but who was responsible for acquiring them?

Simplest theory:

- weapons were owned by the military or LE

- Weapons were stolen from storage or armory by corrupt officials and put somewhere less secure for later sale

- someone who knew where they were and wanted to support the rioters stole them and shared them out quickly

- or criminal elements stole them and spread them to seed more chaos and tie up LE while they focused on robbing something more substantial

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#49

Post by ayazhan »

i was born and raised in Kazakhstan, but left after high school. i've been following the situation in Kazakhstan and recent events give me a glimpse of hope.

Kazakhstan, just like any other post-soviet country, suffers from a host of problems inherited from the USSR, such as.

- corruption

- inefficient political system

- erased identity

- soviet mentality

in addition, our geopolitics is quite challenging. not only do we border 2 major powers that often in disputes over territories (Russia and China), but we're also a landlocked country heavily relying on the very same neighbours for exports. i'm not even talking about our water insecurity.

but we also got lucky in some ways.

- Kazakhstan is blessed with natural resources (such as oil), which helped us a lot throughout the early 2000s

- fertility rate is above replacement (2.6-2.9)

- we have direct access to some of the biggest markets (Russia, China)

- our borders were not chopped up to plant disputes with neighbours

in theory, if we play our cards right, we could come out on top. our population is around 19 million, so agriculture, mining and services alone should be enough to provide jobs. Kazakhstan is already moving in the right direction to facilitate business development (ranks 25 for easy doing business [1])

i've been following the youth of Kazakhstan and have to admit that they are way more patriotic and optimistic than my generation. they're fluent in Kazakh, open minded and more politically savvy. our culture is also flourishing (Kazakh songs consistently accumulate more views on youtube than the population of the country) and our national identity is strengthening.

i see there is some criticism over Tokayev's proposals and it's easy to be skeptical after 30 years of a repressive regime. however, i still dare to hope. prosperity is doable and we simply need a better government with a fair justice system and distributed power. if the government manages to stay away from people's business and just provide a solid platform for stable life, i think we can go far. this aligns with the "Just and Fair Kazakhstan" plan proposed by the president and i'm happy to see it.

1. https://archive.doingbusiness.org/en/rankings

Re: Kazakhstan’s president: We’re moving full speed ahead toward reform

#50

Post by shswkna »

lowkey_ wrote: post #6

For anyone unaware, earlier this year, Kazakhstan faced protests over gas prices (it was a tipping point, there's a lot of wealth inequality) and this president requested the help of Russian security forces to enter the country and help quell riots, and they ended up killing rioters [1]. Most of my Kazakh friends were rooting for the rioters, wanting a more free Kazakhstan, while one friend close to the government wa…

Rioters are not always on the good side. One recent example is what happened in South Africa a couple months ago:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-57996373

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