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Aging programmer

world.hey.com

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Re: Aging programmer

#91

Post by visarga »

pluijzer wrote: post #42
arketyp wrote: post #18

I learned how to code when I was twelve. I wouldn't have if I didn't in some degree enjoy the actual act of coding, the moment to moment typing on the keyboard, composing algorithms, designing data structures and logical flows. But in the back of my mind I also always regarded coding as a means to an end. Sure I became engaged in language design battles, API design philosophy, but the magic with computers was always,…

The magic, curiosity and joy I had also faded for me once. Like you say, much of my jobs included lots of plumbing. For work the elegant solutions that gave me joy would be seen as anti-patterns. The languages I enjoy would scuffed at as being relics. The problems I enjoy seen as useless because there are already solved in bloated over complex enterprise libraries. When I would program for myself in the weekend I wan…

The cure to burnout - give yourself ample time to play and be inspired.

Re: Aging programmer

#92

Post by visarga »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #34
arketyp wrote: post #18

I learned how to code when I was twelve. I wouldn't have if I didn't in some degree enjoy the actual act of coding, the moment to moment typing on the keyboard, composing algorithms, designing data structures and logical flows. But in the back of my mind I also always regarded coding as a means to an end. Sure I became engaged in language design battles, API design philosophy, but the magic with computers was always,…

I have a similar background, but still find programming very rewarding. Not at my day job, that is and has always been a series of mundane chores. I sadly think expecting to get paid for stimulating programming is fairly unrealistic. There is just not a lot of market for solving interesting problems or designing well-optimized code. I find other avenues to build interesting things instead. At 35, I'm able to build th…

> expecting to get paid for stimulating programming is fairly unrealistic

Works for me in ML.

Re: Aging programmer

#93

Post by jwr »

As a mid-40s programmer, I can agree with most of these observations.

Looking at myself, I think my biggest strength is in knowing what not to do.

Re: Aging programmer

#94

Post by beej71 »

I found I lost interest in vapid work. Programming is still fun, but it's a big challenge to find a job that is fulfilling.

When I was younger, I'd work on whatever. Then everything started sounding like yet another get rich quick company, and is that what I was giving up my life for? Just to move little green pieces of paper around?

The most appealing thing I'd seen recently was a company that wrote software to help maximize farm yields. At least there was some real, effective benefit for a great many people.

It's like the goal of the company gradually became more important than the tech or money. And altruistic companies are very rare.

But I always really wanted to teach, so that's what I do now. Pays about 40% of what I'd make in industry, but I get to geek out all day and do work that benefits the world.

Re: Aging programmer

#95

Post by irrational »

40 years old is aging/old?! That was more than a decade ago for me and I definitely didn’t feel aged at the time. I still spend all my time as an individual contributor. Their have been efforts to move me into more senior/management roles and I have refused them all. I know my strengths and working with people isn’t one of them.

Re: Aging programmer

#96

Post by voidfunc »

pluijzer wrote: post #42
arketyp wrote: post #18

I learned how to code when I was twelve. I wouldn't have if I didn't in some degree enjoy the actual act of coding, the moment to moment typing on the keyboard, composing algorithms, designing data structures and logical flows. But in the back of my mind I also always regarded coding as a means to an end. Sure I became engaged in language design battles, API design philosophy, but the magic with computers was always,…

The magic, curiosity and joy I had also faded for me once. Like you say, much of my jobs included lots of plumbing. For work the elegant solutions that gave me joy would be seen as anti-patterns. The languages I enjoy would scuffed at as being relics. The problems I enjoy seen as useless because there are already solved in bloated over complex enterprise libraries. When I would program for myself in the weekend I wan…

This is why I'm starring to get interested in games programming. It is so far removed from the kind of code I do for a living that it is a lot of fun and recaptured the magic of learning to code when I was 11ish.

Re: Aging programmer

#97

Post by StevePerkins »

I'm approaching 50. Just a scant decade away from being old enough to tap my retirement accounts and have the OPTION to retire. These next couple of years look like they might not be fun, but overall it looks like I'm actually going to make it.

For most of my career, I've been told (and I believed) that I would probably get forced out of a hands-on individual contributor role as I aged. During the late-2000's, I even had an early midlife crisis and earned a law degree, expecting that I would need to make a career change into IP or something. That hasn't been the case.

What I think people missed is the compounding effect. The supply and demand for computer programmers seems to double every decade (maybe the interval is even shorter). With each doubling, the older cohorts become a smaller and smaller share of the whole. People look around and think, "There aren't many older programmers here", and base predictions off that observation. However, the more accurate observation would be, "There have been A LOT of younger programmers added here!". I don't believe that it's actually a zero-sum game, though.

I don't know if this human resources cousin to Moore's Law will continue indefinitely, but it's certainly held up through my career. Even when it inevitably slows down, I think that just means you'll see the age cohorts balance out more over time.

Re: Aging programmer

#98

Post by somenameforme »

krmboya wrote: post #10

I wonder where the genesis is of this idea that programming is young person's game akin to physical sports where speed, explosiveness and endurance matter. It seems to me that it's an intellectual activity where one should go on for very long honing their skills and becoming better and better at it with age. Maybe the industry sidelines the older more experienced technical folks at a cost, and that's why there seems…

Chess is a primarily mental competition, but players at the top of the world tend to hit their peak at around 35 years old. Players can continue playing at an exceptionally high level until the end of their life, but on average there is a gradual downward slide from that peak. Magnus Carlsen, the current world champ and arguably strongest player of all time, has decided to simply stop defending his title (held since 2013) at the age of 31.

I think something that tech and chess may have in common as well is the ever-shifting grounds. Electrical engineering of today is not dramatically different than electrical engineering of yesterday. But programming (depending on the domain) is quite different today than yesterday. This is going to result in an age bias because at some point you start to simply become jaded learning 'Incremental, overhyped, and not strictly necessary new trendy framework/language [that nobody will be using in 10 years] #2,743.'

Re: Aging programmer

#99

Post by dahart »

rickreynoldssf wrote: post #65

51 grey beard here. Let me complain about the younguns. So much of what's out there today is, or is based on "solutions" created to solve problems that don't really exist. Rather than try to understand something so many engineers created "frameworks" to implement what was already there. Like 90% of current web stacks are just that. But new engineers are trained on that stuff and think it's the only way. That frustrat…

There’s a legit issue in there, but us old’ns might have to own up to some of the problems we’ve caused (or even just failed to solve) and the legacy we’re leaving. ;) I’m mostly joking, but I honestly don’t think this is a young vs old issue, I think it’s a byproduct of happening to live through the time when the internet took over the earth right while programming exploded as a career. The amount of choice, complexity, scale, and expectation in software today is so much higher than it was 20 years ago.

Putting together a decent web app today that is competitive with what’s out there and doing it in a reasonable amount of time is something that just requires frameworks and library mashing. Even though I can fully empathize with your comment, from experience, and even though my beard is almost as grey, piling stuff I don’t understand together from yarn or npm is exactly how I start a new web app. My job recently switched from web to hardware, and the workflow changed dramatically into writing and scrutinizing every line of code, and complied instruction even. But even still in the hardware company there is an overwhelming sea of choice and complexity and an army of young and old programmers all borrowing and reusing code at all times, with everyone just treading water and understanding only the tiniest sliver of it all.

I think we have no choice but to embrace the fact that it’s no longer possible to avoid swimming in 90% code you can’t control or understand, and figure out how to better manage it and encourage people to snorkel under the surface whenever they can. I don’t think we should blame it on the kids though, they’re just trying to get by the same way we did, but in a different world than we had. The good ones will still shine through and be amazing, and the rest can learn their mistakes the long way just like we did when we were young and obstinate.

Re: Aging programmer

#100

Post by mastersummoner »

irrational wrote: post #95

40 years old is aging/old?! That was more than a decade ago for me and I definitely didn’t feel aged at the time. I still spend all my time as an individual contributor. Their have been efforts to move me into more senior/management roles and I have refused them all. I know my strengths and working with people isn’t one of them.

Was made a team lead recent and it's... interesting.

I always saw myself as an individual contributor, and rebel against the path that leads to what's effectively project management with zero daily coding. But being the lead of a smallish team, making sure everyone's working towards goals and helping more junior devs when they get stuck, is a surprisingly interesting challenge.

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