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Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

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Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#261

Post by tsimionescu »

osel wrote: post #94
arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

You can remove the 'iCloud' notification by starting the setup for it, and then cancelling. It's a dark pattern Apple repeats with a lot of notifications - they are not dismissible and give the appearance they are only resolvable by completing the notified request, but it actuality just starting the setup and then cancelling will resolve it.

Honestly that sounds more like a dark pattern (advertising "notifications" you can't dismiss) + what they would consider a bug (dismissing the adware on installation start instead of finish).

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#262

Post by TingPing »

pabs3 wrote: post #255
andy_xor_andrew wrote: post #27

Does Firefox have a future? I'm writing this from Firefox, having used it ever since the days when Firefox releases used to have launch parties, and tabs was the revolutionary killer feature. Let me rephrase the question: does Gecko/Spidermonkey have a future? I think it's clear the Firefox branding will live on, since it is Mozilla's crown jewel. But in today's landscape, you can target WebKit (Apple) and V8/Blink (…

I wonder when Mozilla will make Gecko/Spidermonkey useful for other browsers, like WebKit seems to be.

Gecko was used in other small browsers in the past but it was always hostile to it, SpiderMonkey is used by some external projects but they clearly aren't interested in it (no releases, api stability, documentation, etc).

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#263

Post by hparadiz »

ht85 wrote: post #140
arnvald wrote: post #3

They're right, recently I've installed some Windows update for my parents and I had to reject like 5 suggested changes - installing Office trial, switching default browser to Edge yet again, and more. But this goes way beyond the browsers - I've never explicitly installed Keychain on my iphone and yet it shows as an option next to 1password every time I fill in a password field. Google calendar asks me to install an…

The win11 / Edge bullshit finally pushed me to migrate my last win machine to linux. I used to love Windows, nowadays it just makes me bitter. Do you know typing "torrent" in the start menu doesn't find "qbittorrent"? In 2022. It sums it all. And the acquisitions... I've had countless minecraft sessions ruined because of microsoft account / store issues. Don't even get me started on realms and the chat policing bulls…

This is my experience as well. All I want is a solid block task bar and solid black window title bars. Since Windows 7 it's become next to impossible to do that without uxtheme.dll patchers. I'm done. Linux all the way now.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#264

Post by notriddle »

guywithahat wrote: post #184

Mozilla should build a better browser and fix their marketing if they want to gain back market share. Other browsers have managed to find ways to gain market share. I mean Brave has grown extremely rapidly headed by the ousted Mozilla CEO during Mozilla's decline

Brave has so few users that Wikimedia doesn’t even list them on the summary table. They get more hits from Apple Mail.

https://analytics.wikimedia.org/dashboards/browsers/#all-sit...

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1102/

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#265

Post by WaitWaitWha »

iepathos wrote: post #105

I'm on a macbook currently using firefox for my default browser, haven't been forced to use safari. On my windows rig I use chrome, haven't been forced to use edge. This is provably false. Haven't been forced to use any specific browser across various operating systems and hardware.

Set Firefox as your default browser on Windows.

Save a file with the extension .htm. It defaults to Edge, no matter what.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#266

Post by S201 »

Nextgrid wrote: post #241
S201 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe Mozilla can knock off the grandstanding, the money wasting, the back patting, and just work on making a competitive browser. You can have the best product in the market but if the deck is unfairly stacked against you it doesn't matter how good your product is.

Firefox is by no means the "best" product, it's an average Chrome clone that's worse than competing Chromium derivatives (Brave, Vivaldi, Edge, etc) from a compatibility and performance point of view. Back when Firefox actually was the best product, it stole ~30% (or even more?) marketshare from Internet Explorer, despite the latter being bundled with the OS. Firefox can be the best browser with third-party add-ons (…

> Firefox is by no means the "best" product, it's an average Chrome clone that's worse than competing Chromium derivatives (Brave, Vivaldi, Edge, etc) from a compatibility and performance point of view.

1. I admire the irony of calling Firefox a Chrome clone when Firefox far predates Chrome.

2. That's purely your opinion. I personally find Firefox to be more performant and customizable than Chrome but to each their own. I'm not going to fanboy browsers here.

3. Where exactly did I claim Firefox was the "best" product? I made a generic statement saying that you can have the best product in the market but when the market discriminates towards you so that it's impossible to get users it doesn't matter how good your product is.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#267

Post by MacsHeadroom »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #5
daviddever23box wrote: post #4

...and so did Mozilla, when FirefoxOS was a thing. Gecko is still the default engine for KaiOS. Are we in browser-whining season again? (Typing this from Firefox on macOS.)

Were there any other browsers even available on FirefoxOS?

The Browser was the OS, much like ChromeOS (only even more so). Everything was run through the browser engine. This is a silly comparison.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#268

Post by puzzledobserver »

tinus_hn wrote: post #251
sshine wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft is full of those. When you enter your birthday during Windows installation (yes, you have to have a Microsoft network account to log in to your own computer, and you have to supply a birthday), the button for confirming the date is a small, grey checkmark hiding below the date picker. Clicking the big, blue “Continue” button in the lower corner will discard your date choice (since it wasn’t picked) and then…

You don’t have to use a Microsoft account if you’re installing Windows 10 and it doesn’t have an internet connection when you run the wizard.

To install Windows 11 without a Microsoft account involves bringing up a command prompt in the middle of the installation process and typing some magic incantations. It's clearly not what Microsoft wants users to be doing.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#269

Post by lbwtaylor »

notriddle wrote: post #264
guywithahat wrote: post #184

Mozilla should build a better browser and fix their marketing if they want to gain back market share. Other browsers have managed to find ways to gain market share. I mean Brave has grown extremely rapidly headed by the ousted Mozilla CEO during Mozilla's decline

Brave has so few users that Wikimedia doesn’t even list them on the summary table. They get more hits from Apple Mail. https://analytics.wikimedia.org/dashboards/browsers/#all-sit... Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1102/

My understanding is that Brave uses Chrome user agents for privacy.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#270

Post by Nextgrid »

S201 wrote: post #266
Nextgrid wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox is by no means the "best" product, it's an average Chrome clone that's worse than competing Chromium derivatives (Brave, Vivaldi, Edge, etc) from a compatibility and performance point of view. Back when Firefox actually was the best product, it stole ~30% (or even more?) marketshare from Internet Explorer, despite the latter being bundled with the OS. Firefox can be the best browser with third-party add-ons (…

> Firefox is by no means the "best" product, it's an average Chrome clone that's worse than competing Chromium derivatives (Brave, Vivaldi, Edge, etc) from a compatibility and performance point of view. 1. I admire the irony of calling Firefox a Chrome clone when Firefox far predates Chrome. 2. That's purely your opinion. I personally find Firefox to be more performant and customizable than Chrome but to each their o…

> I admire the irony of calling Firefox a Chrome clone when Firefox far predates Chrome.

You are right about the technical details, but my intention was to compare it from a non-technical user's perspective. For the non-technical user, modern Firefox is a Chrome clone (and strives to be that) with a very similar UI. The browser engine being different is a technical detail that isn't relevant to the average user who doesn't even know what a browser engine is, and they are not aware (and don't care) about Firefox's history. Stock Firefox is very similar to Chrome and Mozilla wants it to be that way, having removed many features that differentiated it in the past.

> but when the market discriminates towards you so that it's impossible to get users it doesn't matter how good your product is

Potentially, but you can't say for sure that market discrimination and anti-competitive practices are what is holding Firefox back when there are no compelling reasons for a non-technical user to use Firefox over Chrome, so I disagree with the argument that anti-competitive practices are what is holding Firefox back - Mozilla is holding Firefox back by not actually making it a better product to the eyes of a non-technical user (ignore the fact that FF can be a better product with enough customization & add-ons - people competent enough to do so already use Firefox and are its only remaining users).

When stock Firefox is good enough to appeal to and impress non-technical users out of the box (such as by having good, built-in ad-blocking), I will believe in the anti-competitiveness argument. Until then, my opinion is that it's yet another excuse for Mozilla to waste time & resources on anything but actually building a good browser.

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