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Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

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Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#171

Post by pwinnski »

dont__panic wrote: post #18
somenameforme wrote: post #15

Without commenting on the claims, it's interesting to consider how times have changed. Microsoft originally lost an antitrust lawsuit [1] over little more than tying Internet Explorer into their OS and not readily including alternatives. They not only lost that case, but the initial judgement was that the company was to be broken up. Microsoft started spending dramatically more money on "lobbying" following that. [1]…

Amazing that 20 years on, the USA has essentially given up on anti-trust tech regulation. Facebook acquired and repeatedly copied its closest competitors, no problem. Adobe buys up its competitors, no problem. Google aggressively pushes Chrome and fails to makes its own websites fully compatible with competitors, carry on. Apple refuses to give users the freedom to run their own apps on their purchased phones, no big…

Both! The history is covered extensively and well in Matt Stoller's book Goliath, and ongoing on his substack[0].

The TL;DR version is that the MS case affected things, but so do a shifting emphasis in Congress.

0. https://mattstoller.substack.com

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#172

Post by 0x457 »

howinteresting wrote: post #67
oarsinsync wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1Password doesn't perform WebAuthn logins, only password (and TOTP) based logins. The GP is talking about WebAuthn / FIDO2 logins.

1password is going to implement WebAuthn in the future: https://blog.1password.com/1password-is-joining-the-fido-all... However, the lock-in concern remains: how can you export passkeys to another password manager the same way you can export passwords to it?

Well, the point of such keys is that you can't extract the private part. I've never met a single service that supports Webauthn and doesn't allow you to have multiple tokens: every time I enroll into a new service, I do this: add physical key, add desktop (Windows Hello) if it's personal, add laptop (Touch ID) of it's work and maybe Face ID on iPad.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#173

Post by 0x457 »

speeder wrote: post #107

One of the things that piss me off is that sometimes even forks are not accepted. For example Formula 1 TV doesn't work on my SmartTV or on some of my browsers despite them being forks of Chrome, where it works just fine. Not only that, it used to work there in the past, what happened is now it actively detects if the browser is a real Google Chrome from Google (not a recompiled version), and refuse to work otherwise…

F1 TV probably doesn't work for another reason, it's most likely missing the right DRM module.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#174

Post by smoldesu »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #149

Does Linux force you to use Firefox? Every distro I know has it by default. Yet the first thing I do on a new install is install Chrome... And of course everyone does the same on Windows. Only Edge has started to slightly change that trend, and that's with some very aggressive tactics by MS.

I hate to be pedantic, but Linux doesn't 'force' you to do anything. By default, it doesn't even have the dependencies required to render HTML. Linux is just a kernel, and various maintainers package it into software distributions.

The main problem with including Chrome/Chromium/Ungoogled Chromium is the license. Mozilla's MPL is straightforward and compatible with most FOSS licenses. As I understand it, Chromium's codebase is still a melange of different licenses (and some proprietary code) that is generally unfit for packaging with other free software. Most repositories will still have it on-hand though, since it would be pretty silly to prevent you from using the browser you want.

If you'd rather avoid Firefox altogether, run archinstall and add chromium to your extra packages field. Many build-it-yourself distros like NixOS exclude browsers altogether.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#175

Post by fabrice_d »

shultays wrote: post #122
Osmose wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quality of Firefox has nothing to do with the anti-competitive actions of platforms. This affects Vivaldi, Brave, and all the 3rd-party web browsers (or the platform browsers on other platforms, e.g. Chrome on Windows). Mozilla doesn't make this argument because their browser share is lower than it used to be, but because diversity, not domination, is the goal.

How come Chrome towers over Edge then?

A marketing budget in the billions (including shady bundling deals), and free Chrome advertising on top web properties helps quite a bit.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#176

Post by cma »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #156
BeefySwain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this does align with my beliefs and biases, do you have any proof or evidence to point to that was the case? Specifically that the antitrust suit was due (in whole or in part) to Microsoft not engaging with politics, and that the result has been a trend towards big tech playing ball, and hence future antitrust being unlikely?

The spy shit is hard to back up, due to the inherently secretive nature of spy shit. However I can back up the lobbying aspect of my claims above: Fortune magazine article about it from 2002 (hosted by CNN): > For a couple of embarrassing years in the mid-'90s, Microsoft's primary lobbying presence in D.C. was "Jack and his Jeep." As the software giant's sole in-house lobbyist, Jack Krumholtz, then 33, had to battle…

They had bought/partnered there way into their own 24/7 cable news network a good bit before that, which is probably worth a thousand lobbiests politically.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#177

Post by sbf501 »

smoldesu wrote: post #150
dmitriid wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has become a parody of itself. A decade ago they were mocking Windows for the abundance of notifications. And now...

Try the new Safari!

"Try Apple Arcade for Three Months Free"

Inside the *CONTROL PANEL* of the latest iOS.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#178

Post by gerash »

323 wrote: post #154
gerash wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert on the web tech. so apologies in advance but wouldn't it be great if Mozilla spent all that money Google gives them on something more revolutionary like a new runtime for ephemeral apps and the corresponding UI engine that's not bound to the legacy JS and HTML and has near native performance and access to hardware sensors? Add to that the support for multi device setups where you can move an app ses…

HTML/CSS/JS are the most superior UI engine that exists right now, especially when used through something like React/Vue/Svelte. So creating an even better one is quite a tall order.

A non-profit with lots of talented devs like Mozilla is in a good position to do just that. I do understand it'd be at least a 5 year long effort by a talented team of 200 engineers but it's still better and more fun than iterating on Firefox.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#179

Post by kitsunesoba »

Osmose wrote: post #80
kitsunesoba wrote: post #37

While Google, Microsoft, and Apple clearly factor into the equation here (especially Google — when Chrome first came out the marketing for it was a real force to contend with, and they've aggressively pushed Chrome ever since), the other big thing is that Mozilla ceased to be a leader. They started chasing Chrome and put Firefox on the back burner, and now they're reaping what they've sown. I am a huge proponent of w…

The quality of Firefox has nothing to do with the anti-competitive actions of platforms. This affects Vivaldi, Brave, and all the 3rd-party web browsers (or the platform browsers on other platforms, e.g. Chrome on Windows). Mozilla doesn't make this argument because their browser share is lower than it used to be, but because diversity, not domination, is the goal.

I would say that diversity without significant numbers, at least when it comes to web engines, is meaningless. If Firefox remains at ~2% marketshare, web developers will pay it no more regard than they do now. It needs to be more popular so proper support for it can't be shrugged off, and so Mozilla has a stronger hand at the web standards table to stop Google from railroading whatever they please through.

Re: Mozilla claims Apple, Google and Microsoft force users to use default browsers

#180

Post by Schroedingersat »

concinds wrote: post #134
KerrAvon wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

define "the government" -- who and what exactly is controlling this supposed policy?

There's no conspiracy. Mostly think tanks, policy circles, and White House wonks over every successive Internet-age administration. All segments of the U.S. government pay close attention to, among many people, geopolitical analysis of all stripes, who can help them understand how to remain the world hegemon. The U.S. frequently commissions studies by outfits like Booz Allen Hamilton on geopolitical matters (you can…

The most maddening thing is how little other governments seem to care about it it.

Forcing windows, android, and ios on your citizens and gifting silicon valley a constant worldwide surveillance feed is incredibly harmful to long term interests. Forcing every business to use office365 to interact with any government office is a 1% income tax gifted to the american economy.

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