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Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

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Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#321

Post by Melatonic »

notduncansmith wrote: post #214
philliphaydon wrote: post #172

I’m convinced WhatsApp’s e2e is BS. Because multiple times I’ve mentioned something I’ve never even googled and then had Facebook ads for those things show up minutes later. The most notable one being renting an apartment. I viewed an apartment then sent a message to the agent requesting window grills or latches and then had adverts for that stuff straight away. When ever I mention this on HN I get downvoted with lam…

I wonder if there’s some kind of side channel leaking the ad targeting data, for instance if you type something into WhatsApp and they add words that you type into a user-specific autocomplete dictionary (or your lexicographical profile or whatever other aggregate they keep for various business purposes). Then they use those aggregates to target users based on the words they use in conversation without “decrypting th…

Yup. Keyboards can read everything. I always turn off all the special features of the keyboard that seem sketchy even if its from a legit company like Google.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#322

Post by procinct »

netsectoday wrote: post #268
Hamuko wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works on my iPhone. https://litter.catbox.moe/cpvpr8.jpg

The screen was off when the event happened... 1) Does your iPhone still record audio when the screen is off? 2) Can you see the audio indicator when the screen is off? 3) If a background app starts then stops recording audio while the screen is off, would you have an indicator that it recorded audio?

> 3) If a background app starts then stops recording audio while the screen is off, would you have an indicator that it recorded audio?

Yes. iOS displays an indicator if an app has recently used the mic.

> Note: Whenever an app uses the camera (including when the camera and microphone are used together), a green indicator appears. An orange indicator appears at the top of the screen whenever an app uses the microphone without the camera. Also, a message appears at the top of Control Center to inform you when an app has recently used either.

Source: https://support.apple.com/en-nz/guide/iphone/iph168c4bbd5/io...

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#323

Post by edwnj »

Its very unlikely. Not because FB is a kewl company with super kewl morals.

If you look at through the lens of game theory, the employees are extremely incentivised socially, ethically and financially to leak it.

First they didn't break E2E because its very hard to do it without people knowing.

So know we are talking about a "soft break" where they search/send key words before e2e kicks in. They wouldn't be able to that without quite a few employees knowing.

Let alone those super nerds who spend insane amount of time reverse engineering these apps and spoofing network requests just to see wassup.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#324

Post by RC_ITR »

dan-robertson wrote: post #146

I think you partly may just be biased by happening to notice ads more if they fit the topic you sent to your wife or being lenient in deciding if ads meet the categorization. And if you dwell on an ad because it seems to match, you may get more similar ads. Here is how I think you could design a more robust (but less fun) experiment: - Come up with a bunch of topics, write them down on slips of paper, put the paper i…

These kind of stories are always fun to analyze using the Socratic method.

-How did you learn about the product?

-Have you ever searched for it?

-Did a friend of yours tell you about it? Do you think they searched for it?

-Are a lot of ads for it playing on TV channels you like? Could instagram know you like those TV channels?

-Is it something your neighbors got? Do you think there has been a spike in shipments of this product to your neighbors?

Eventually people start to “get” that scanning the text of messages is way more helpful for humans than it is for computers. They’ve got other data they can use.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#325

Post by Melatonic »

snowmizuh-04 wrote: post #144

The scarier thing to me is when ads match _conversations_ I have with my wife. I told her about this story this morning, and she reminded me about a conversation about stem cell research we had yesterday. I said something along the lines of 'I hope there is a breakthrough soon on regenerating the Isle of Langerhans in the pancreas to treat diabetes.' Sure enough, she noticed an article in her Google News feed later t…

I would setup NextDNS free version, add a ton of blockers, link your devices correctly to it, and then see if it still occurs. NextDNS is not going to block a lot of stuff but if there is a significant change then at least you have an easy way to show it. Setup is quick and easy relatively

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#326

Post by hayst4ck »

xerxesaa wrote: post #256

As someone who has actually worked on end to end encryption at Meta, I can tell you I am not aware of anything where the company reads your WhatsApp messages - either in transit or device. The company takes fairly serious measures to ensure it cannot even accidentally infer such contents. I don't know what is happening in this specific case. Perhaps the ads came from some other similar search queries. Perhaps they ca…

> Perhaps the ads came from some other similar search queries. Perhaps they came from the keyboard intercepting what was typed. Or perhaps something else that I can't think of. But I'm nearly certain it did not come from meta intercepting the contents of your messages.

Isn't this kind of splitting hairs? Does it matter if text information came from a "side channel"?

It seems like the promise Facebook makes is that 'your communication using whats app is secure,' that's certainly my interpretation of what "end to end encrypted" means. It is a promise of security. That means text is sacred and even text sent to giphy should be privileged from the ad machine.

The question being asked here is not "is it end to end encrypted?" It's "are my communications secure?" End to end encryption is just one element of that security.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#327

Post by Melatonic »

InsomniacL wrote: post #84
spinningslate wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only you and the person you're communicating with can read or listen to what is sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp I guess the key lies in "what is sent" in the above statement. The casual reader might reasonably interpret as "no-one except the intended recipient can see _what I type_". But it doesn't say that. It only covers what gets _sent_. It doesn't say anything about what happens to the content ou…

Even if that interpretation was correct in a broader sense, which I don't believe it is, certainly in this context of e2ee it isn't correct. The more obvious explanation is that before or after the e2ee (i.e within the app itself), an algorithm scans the content, categorizes it and sends this to Meta/Facebook. In this scenario, *Nobody* has read the content other than the person you're communicating with.

The local app running on your phone might even legally by considered "you" since it is running on your device under your user agent. I realize that is a bit of a nefarious take but I could see that being the case.....

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#328

Post by ASalazarMX »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #259
rakoo wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A simpler protocol to realize that the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon is probably what's happening: - pick said topic, something you never cared about before, talk about it but don't write any messages containing it; - for 1 month record every ad you see about it; - send a message about the topic; - for another month, record every ad you see about it Comparing the number of occurrences will tell you what is happening.

You're saying to record ads you see about it on TV or something? (Just to eliminate the "My computer is secretly recording me" angle)

The problem is, your smart TV could be spying you too, if it's capable of voice commands or videoconference. If you discuss sex toys near it, at least some related keywords could make their way to targeted advertising.

My wife and I routinely use ad blockers, private browser windows, browser profiles, and try to use as little ad-supported products as possible. This doesn't stop targeted advertising, I guess because most devices we use connect through the same IP. A couple of days after she starts looking up a city we want to travel to, I'll start receiving ads from airline companies or travel agencies, and even tours/cruises to said city/region. Fighting tracking and spyware is nearly a lost cause unless you become a digital Amish.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#329

Post by jakelazaroff »

whimsicalism wrote: post #288
netsectoday wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a message board about tech... comments aren't welcome anymore - we need evidence to participate? I think it's interesting when a bunch of people chime in and say "Hey, yeah, I had some crazy thing happen to me, I'm in tech and understand how this stuff works, and there's a very small to zero chance this happened through some other parallel construction by the tech company, they just straight up listened to my…

In general I agree, but I think when you are being explicitly asked for a "source" in response to an allegation that it is settled that FB has been "caught recording people," I would prefer to not have anecdotes in reply.

I mean… this is a conversation, not some sort of formal debate? Someone is telling you "hey, this happened to me," and your response isn't "have you considered this other explanation?" but rather "I won't discuss this further unless you do a bunch of research and present the results to me."

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#330

Post by thetrb »

hayst4ck wrote: post #326
xerxesaa wrote: post #256

As someone who has actually worked on end to end encryption at Meta, I can tell you I am not aware of anything where the company reads your WhatsApp messages - either in transit or device. The company takes fairly serious measures to ensure it cannot even accidentally infer such contents. I don't know what is happening in this specific case. Perhaps the ads came from some other similar search queries. Perhaps they ca…

> Perhaps the ads came from some other similar search queries. Perhaps they came from the keyboard intercepting what was typed. Or perhaps something else that I can't think of. But I'm nearly certain it did not come from meta intercepting the contents of your messages. Isn't this kind of splitting hairs? Does it matter if text information came from a "side channel"? It seems like the promise Facebook makes is that 'y…

The thing is if it's a 3rd-party Android keyboard or similar that logs your messages then there's nothing Meta can do about this.
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