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Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

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Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#71

Post by endofreach »

beardyw wrote: post #60
spinningslate wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only you and the person you're communicating with can read or listen to what is sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp I guess the key lies in "what is sent" in the above statement. The casual reader might reasonably interpret as "no-one except the intended recipient can see _what I type_". But it doesn't say that. It only covers what gets _sent_. It doesn't say anything about what happens to the content ou…

Maybe Meta are not as trustworthy as I imagined.

Stop calling them Meta. It‘s Facebook.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#72

Post by titaniczero »

xchip wrote: post #34

If it is all encrypted how comes the police always have access to whatsapp conversations?

By accessing the device. It is not only E2E encrypted, WhatsApp servers are only a middleman, as soon as they arrive (double-check) they will be deleted from the server. Undelivered messages are retained up to 30 days, according to their privacy policy:

We do not retain your messages in the ordinary course of providing our Services to you. Instead, your messages are stored on your device and not typically stored on our servers. Once your messages are delivered, they are deleted from our servers. The following scenarios describe circumstances where we may store your messages in the course of delivering them:

Undelivered Messages. If a message cannot be delivered immediately (for example, if the recipient is offline), we keep it in encrypted form on our servers for up to 30 days as we try to deliver it. If a message is still undelivered after 30 days, we delete it.

Media Forwarding. When a user forwards media within a message, we store that media temporarily in encrypted form on our servers to aid in more efficient delivery of additional forwards.

We offer end-to-end encryption for our Services. End-to-end encryption means that your messages are encrypted to protect against us and third parties from reading them. Learn more about end-to-end encryption and how businesses communicate with you on WhatsApp.>>

https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/privacy-policy/?lang=en

Assuming they are compliant with their privacy policy, they don’t even have the messages.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#73

Post by InsomniacL »

consider the following scenario

type a message -> msg encrypted -> msg sent -> msg received -> msg decrypted -> msg viewed in app

Then consider the following:

type a message -> msg encrypted -> msg sent -> msg received -> msg decrypted -> app scans content and sends classification to ads server -> msg viewed in app

Both are end-to-end encrypted.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#74

Post by pc86 »

martin_a wrote: post #58
bin_bash wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t even make sense. Why go through the trouble of retargeting based on images? If you took a photo of something you likely already own it.

> If you took a photo of something you likely already own it. Tell that to Amazon who never fail to recommend me things I just bought.

Hey if you really liked the vacuum cleaner you just bought, you definitely want to buy another one.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#75

Post by that_guy_iain »

Every few months someone thinks they've proven that these companies are recording us via our phones, scanning our messages secretly, etc. What's more likely that these companies are going to break the law but manage to keep it a secret that not one engineer who worked on these features speaks out after all the whistleblowers that have come forward or that you're that predictable they can guess what you're wanting/thinking from what you content they already serve you?

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#76

Post by rhn_mk1 »

FreeHugs wrote: post #5

Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. Meta has control over the app Sue uses. So they could send them to Meta unencrypted in addition to sending them to Joe in an encrypted fashion. Or they just extract the relevant terms: Sue->Joe: "Hello Joe, I'm so excited! We are going to have a baby! Let's call it Dingbert. You're not the father! Ji…

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them.

I think it does actually no one except them can read them. If someone else can, then by definition it's not end-to-end encryption.

From https://www.definitions.net/definition/End-To-End%20Encrypti...

> End-to-end encryption (E2EE) is a system of communication where only the communicating users can read the messages.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#77

Post by viraptor »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #76
FreeHugs wrote: post #5

Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. Meta has control over the app Sue uses. So they could send them to Meta unencrypted in addition to sending them to Joe in an encrypted fashion. Or they just extract the relevant terms: Sue->Joe: "Hello Joe, I'm so excited! We are going to have a baby! Let's call it Dingbert. You're not the father! Ji…

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. I think it does actually no one except them can read them. If someone else can, then by definition it's not end-to-end encryption. From https://www.definitions.net/definition/End-To-End%20Encrypti... > End-to-end encryption (E2EE) is a system of communication where only the communicating users can…

The conversations being e2ee do not affect the app itself from acting on contents. By definition the app needs to know the contents to display it, but it can also update your ad profile. It doesn't even need to send the whole message to meta, just the keywords triggered, or a preprocessed vector defining your interests.

E2ee means only the messages themselves can't be intercepted and read. But if anyone can actually prove fb acting on message contents, I suspect the EU banhammer would be interested.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#78

Post by InsomniacL »

Maro wrote: post #18

Whatsapp FAQ: WhatsApp's end-to-end encryption is used when you chat with another person using WhatsApp Messenger. End-to-end encryption ensures only you and the person you're communicating with can read or listen to what is sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp. This is because with end-to-end encryption, your messages are secured with a lock, and only the recipient and you have the special key needed to un…

> End-to-end encryption ensures only you and the person you're communicating with can read or listen to what is sent, and nobody in between, not even WhatsApp.

This does not exclude an algorithm running running on the sender/recipient's App from scanning the content and sending suggestions to AD servers.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#79

Post by xuki »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #76
FreeHugs wrote: post #5

Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. Meta has control over the app Sue uses. So they could send them to Meta unencrypted in addition to sending them to Joe in an encrypted fashion. Or they just extract the relevant terms: Sue->Joe: "Hello Joe, I'm so excited! We are going to have a baby! Let's call it Dingbert. You're not the father! Ji…

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. I think it does actually no one except them can read them. If someone else can, then by definition it's not end-to-end encryption. From https://www.definitions.net/definition/End-To-End%20Encrypti... > End-to-end encryption (E2EE) is a system of communication where only the communicating users can…

Whatsapp can't read the message on their servers but they can read it at clients, otherwise they cannot display the messages for users. Likewise, Apple/Google can read them too because they have to in order to render the texts.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#80

Post by verytrivial »

titaniczero wrote: post #72
xchip wrote: post #34

If it is all encrypted how comes the police always have access to whatsapp conversations?

By accessing the device. It is not only E2E encrypted, WhatsApp servers are only a middleman, as soon as they arrive (double-check) they will be deleted from the server. Undelivered messages are retained up to 30 days, according to their privacy policy: We do not retain your messages in the ordinary course of providing our Services to you. Instead, your messages are stored on your device and not typically stored on o…

> End-to-end encryption means that your messages are encrypted to protect against us

So, they say the protection is there once the encryption has been applied. They say nothing about what happens to the content before or after that on the end user's devices. That handling is however covered by other legitimate use clauses in the privacy statement. This covers keyword scanning for targetted ads (so a defence lawyer will say at some point.)

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