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The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

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Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#461

Post by kelnos »

throwaway2056 wrote: post #408
kelnos wrote: post #322

I hesitated posting this, because I don't want to be too negative, but: ugh. ChromeOS is just more Google adware/tracking-ware, locking people into the Google ecosystem, and (by default, at least) creating a more locked-down environment than a general-purpose OS would have (not quite iOS or even Android, but still not with the flexibility of a "mainstream" OS). I feel like Framework could be spending their time doing…

> locked-down Most non ARM devices can be fully unlocked to run bare metal linux. Just https://mrchromebox.tech/ > I don't want to be too negative You are. Though there are certain privacy issues that may be warranted, you seems to make remarks without base. > Google adware/tracking-ware, locking people into the Google ecosystem One will always get locked to some ecosystem. Some friends use Facebook as photo storage…

> Most non ARM devices can be fully unlocked to run bare metal linux. Just https://mrchromebox.tech/

The fact that you can unlock it and run regular Linux isn't really the point. Selling a laptop that is pre-loaded with ChromeOS means that it's intended that buyers actually run ChromeOS on it, and I expect most that buy it, will (otherwise they would just get the regular or DIY version). Framework simply endorsing ChromeOS in this fashion is enough of a problem.

> Though there are certain privacy issues that may be warranted, you seems to make remarks without base.

I don't think that's the case, and nothing you've written here seems to contradict what I've said.

> One will always get locked to some ecosystem. Some friends use Facebook as photo storage as REAL-WORLD-USERS do not want to run NAS, RAID, off-site backup. Others having $$$ have iCloud.

That doesn't have to be the state of the world, though. I think all of that is not great, and the solution isn't just to throw up our hands and endorse closed-ecosystem environments.

There are other, less-extreme options in between "I live inside Facebook" and "I run a home server and NAS and host my own social network at home". Unfortunately many of them still aren't quite user-friendly -- though some are -- and the Facebooks of the world wield far too much market power.

> Lets be honest, Framework knows what is IMPORTANT for themselves than you.

You seem to be unreasonably angry over what I said. Maybe cool off a bit? I even acknowledged that there might be good reasons for Framework's business to offer ChromeOS as a product, but you seem to have intentionally ignored that bit.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#462

Post by aussiesnack »

grey_earthling wrote: post #457
aussiesnack wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking more for the sort of non-technical users a Chromebook would suit, which at a minimum means pre-installed with little or no admin needed. Chromebooks are a great idea, it's just a pity they're so deeply intertwined with Google services (though given way the consumer market has developed, some such corporate entanglement is I suppose inevitable).

Ah, yeah. I don't think anyone sells laptops with Silverblue pre-installed, so that would be a hurdle. After that though, IMO Silverblue fits the bill very well, and may surprise you with how polished its update/upgrade flow is, especially compared to Debian-family distros.

Regular Fedora Workstation is my standard OS these days, so I suspect Silverblue may be in my own future. I look forward to giving it a try when time allows & curiosity overwhelms!

Aside from Linux distros per se though, I think there's a need for something like ChromeOS (preinstalled, appliance-like, as foolproof as possible), but without the deep single-corp dependence. Unfortunately I don't think the market in its current state is capable of filling this need.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#463

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #398
askvictor wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I share your concerns, the user experience and security of ChromeOS is so much nicer than Windows, or Linux (haven't used a Mac for ages so can't compare), for most tasks for most people. It's what I'd recommend to my grandparents. Also, completely disagree with your point about locking people into Google ecosystem - this is an OS that just runs a web browser. You need a Google account to log in, sure (actually…

It is possible to create customised UNIX-like OS with custom kernels, read-only filesystems (mounted images) and writable directories mounted as tmpfs, booting from removable USB. Some call this "diskless". There are some drawbacks from using USB media such as lack of a good randomness source on boot but there are many advantages. Kernels and filesystems are just single files on the USB media and can be easily switch…

Because Chrome runs from read-only media on the Chromebook in Guest Mode, some Chrome settings (chrome://settings) are not changeable. For example, one cannot globally disable Javascript or cookies globally. It is possible to disable these "features" only using Developer Tools and therefore only on a per tab basis. Settings are lost when the tab is closed. Similarly, any changed settings in Chrome (through chrome://settings) are lost on reboot. As such, a computer user who dligently entered per site settings for privacy and security would lose all her settings every time she reboots the Chromebook.

Needless to say Chrome defaults favour Google and Google's advertiser customers. Making it impossible^1 for Chromebook users in Guest Mode to save and import privacy and security settings is a dark pattern.

1. Google employees will proclaim this is incorrect. All the computer user has to do is "log in" to Google in order to save her settings. Once logged in, Google can collect more data about the computer user. However non-employees of the corporation may not wish to "log in". Google employees assume that all computer users should trust Google, like they themselves do. Given that Google is collecting as much data about them as the law will allow, and then some, this is a curious assumption indeed.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#464

Post by m-p-3 »

askvictor wrote: post #328
kelnos wrote: post #322

I hesitated posting this, because I don't want to be too negative, but: ugh. ChromeOS is just more Google adware/tracking-ware, locking people into the Google ecosystem, and (by default, at least) creating a more locked-down environment than a general-purpose OS would have (not quite iOS or even Android, but still not with the flexibility of a "mainstream" OS). I feel like Framework could be spending their time doing…

While I share your concerns, the user experience and security of ChromeOS is so much nicer than Windows, or Linux (haven't used a Mac for ages so can't compare), for most tasks for most people. It's what I'd recommend to my grandparents. Also, completely disagree with your point about locking people into Google ecosystem - this is an OS that just runs a web browser. You need a Google account to log in, sure (actually…

Honestly, ChromeOS has been the best solution for my grandparents. I don't receive any calls to help them out with computer issues, which means I can spend more time with them instead of fixing stuff.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#465

Post by cbsmith »

r2binx wrote: post #414
cbsmith wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of security models that rely on RAM being more difficult for an attacker to access than disk (as you can imagine it is much easier to ensure things stored to disk are resistant to compromise than to ensure that nothing in working memory is usable by an attacker). Swap is that in between case where storage is memory, so that creates a unique challenge. What you want is that if someone steals your hiberna…

Ah of course, I haven't thought about it that way, thanks for your explanation. I guess it depends if you're willing to put all eggs in one basket so to speak. But instead of disabling hibernation outright maybe distros can find a compromise there. My anecdotal experience with friends that tried Linux is that it left such a bad impression when they opened they're laptop the next morning and it's lost most of its batt…

Oddly, no one thinks about the Chromebooks.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#467

Post by sulam »

cmatthias wrote: post #450
kweingar wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can harden and configure a Linux system to have many of the ChromeOS security features, but ChromeOS has all of these enabled by default: - All user data is encrypted at the login level. A guest user cannot access any other users’ data. Whereas in Ubuntu, for example, home directories have 755 permissions. - The Linux userspace in ChromeOS is actually running on KVM, so ChromeOS itself is insulated from user-inst…

What if the attacker is the one who built and shipped the OS to begin with? Everything you say is true, but it doesn't matter as long as user data (history, location, etc) is being shipped off to Google. Or, put another way: your threat model is a nefarious hacker or three-letter-agency who might secretly modify your hardware/software to get your data. Mine is surveillance capitalism. ChromeOS is secure under your th…

Relevant from your POV. A very large part of the planet clearly doesn't care.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#468

Post by aussiesnack »

isr wrote: post #429
aussiesnack wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, thanks. That's something then - I don't know much about ChromeOS. I've considered it for parents, but in the end have opted for something modest running one Linux or another. A true laptop-appliance with an immutable-ish OS, decent security and fast/easy updates is actually a quite compelling notion. I'd be pretty uncomfortable with it not being local-first for user data though.

Actually, in many ways, what you're asking for in your 2nd paragraph is pretty much what chrome os is. BTW, chrome os is actually gentoo linux under the hood (with the portage pkg manager stripped out at the end). At one time, there was even a shell script doing the rounds which put portage back on it. Your larger point re: Google reliance is still a valid one, but one which holds true even if you run chrome on anoth…

> Actually, in many ways, what you're asking for in your 2nd paragraph is pretty much what chrome os is.

Indeed, that was my point. Something like ChromeOS is a great idea.

> Your larger point re: Google reliance is still a valid one, but one which holds true even if you run chrome on another linux distro. If you really look at it, I'm not sure if a chromebook is less private than that.

Privacy's not my main emphasis. The world is in a state of gradual physical collapse. My (wealthy) region has had infrastructure destroyed by successive waves of fire and flood, and it will never recover (eg. we'll never again have year-round roads or always-on internet). We're the vanguard of what is coming to all. Entirely network-dependent devices aren't appropriate technology for our time. a fortiori for single-corporation-dependent devices.

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#469

Post by isr »

aussiesnack wrote: post #468
isr wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, in many ways, what you're asking for in your 2nd paragraph is pretty much what chrome os is. BTW, chrome os is actually gentoo linux under the hood (with the portage pkg manager stripped out at the end). At one time, there was even a shell script doing the rounds which put portage back on it. Your larger point re: Google reliance is still a valid one, but one which holds true even if you run chrome on anoth…

> Actually, in many ways, what you're asking for in your 2nd paragraph is pretty much what chrome os is. Indeed, that was my point. Something like ChromeOS is a great idea. > Your larger point re: Google reliance is still a valid one, but one which holds true even if you run chrome on another linux distro. If you really look at it, I'm not sure if a chromebook is less private than that. Privacy's not my main emphasis…

Ah, I see where you're coming from.

Coincidentally, I've been doing a deep dive into offline-first, mesh & p2p related projects (nncp, yggdrasil, etc).

Would be interesting to see a linux distro with builtin plumbing for such things. Eg: constant snapshots, cached locally and then forwarded on to your other devices (once they are network reachable), all within a local mesh network that you define, which sits on top of the public internet (and bypasses NAT and firewalls)

Re: The Framework Laptop Chromebook Edition

#470

Post by cmatthias »

sulam wrote: post #467
cmatthias wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the attacker is the one who built and shipped the OS to begin with? Everything you say is true, but it doesn't matter as long as user data (history, location, etc) is being shipped off to Google. Or, put another way: your threat model is a nefarious hacker or three-letter-agency who might secretly modify your hardware/software to get your data. Mine is surveillance capitalism. ChromeOS is secure under your th…

Relevant from your POV. A very large part of the planet clearly doesn't care.

I said it was more relevant than nefarious hackers or government agencies, not relevant in some subjective general sense. So whether or not they care is irrelevant to my point.
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