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The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

codahale.com

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Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#51

Post by nknight »

reissbaker wrote: post #33
michaelochurch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what the person's using the language for. I'd say "no" for C. C is still the leading language for a lot of purposes: operating systems, runtimes for higher-level languages, device drivers, and applications where tight control of memory use is important. In these domains, C hasn't been supplanted yet-- not even close. I don't know that C++ and Java have substantial domains in which they're superior to other…

In AAA game development, it's C++ or go home. People can argue all day about the relative merits of Java, but C++ certainly has a domain in which it's superior to other choices.

C++ has a domain where it has a large foothold and extreme inertia. That says nothing about its fundamental merits.

Your statement is also misleading for another reason. Core engine logic might be in C++, but actual "game" logic is increasingly being shoved into scripting languages like Lua.

Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#52

Post by weego »

ShardPhoenix wrote: post #6

Why are the needs of the "Scala community" to save face more important than the truth?

The reality of the Scala community is that most of the major players (the Typesafe side) prior to commercialising directly were hoping for some level of popular adoption with devs that would bubble up into startups/SME and for whatever reason that hasn't happened. So now they are banking on the idea they can sell directly into large enterprise space as a one size fits all approach that involves cross training developers (as there are very few out there due to the mentioned lack of adoption). This is pretty risky and needs momentum that can easily be killed by negative stories.

A lot in the original email is correct (I can't speak for the performance stuff as my skills are more webdev side of Scala), especially the way that libraries/OSS projects/sbt pan out. Something like Dispatch that is a fantastic tool and should be simple is a mess of functions-as-operators and poor to no documentation or examples to the point where for some things even reading the source code is not a lot of help. I'm not going to type out my thoughts on the shambles that was the sbt rewrite at 0.10+... just complete madness.

Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#53

Post by cfontes »

I am getting more and more tried about this kind of arguments, I am studding Scala and I like it, It can be right for some things and wrong for others, it's just another tool in my toolbox like Java, JavaScript, Ruby... You gotta have tools, and be able to choose between a Hammer and a screwdriver when needed, that's the real "Hacker"

Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#54

Post by sapphirecat »

socratic wrote: post #16
michaelochurch wrote: post #7

Here's why I, personally, prefer to put all my investment into languages like Scala and Clojure. Scala and Clojure, for their problems (which are not severe, but not to be ignored) have the advantage of being closer to the languages and approaches of the future, in which building comprehensible systems at very high levels of complexity/intellectual intricacy will be even more important relative to performance of exec…

Do people think the hiring and talent argument holds water? The more I hear this argument (e.g., from the "Python Paradox"), the less I buy it. Is the theory that true "hackers" care more about the programming language syntax and semantics than whether it has the right libraries for the subject domain of the startup? Is the theory that true "hackers" care more about whether the startup uses a new and un-tested progra…

> Is the theory that true "hackers" care more about the programming language syntax and semantics than whether it has the right libraries for the subject domain of the startup? Is the theory that true "hackers" care more about whether the startup uses a new and un-tested programming language than traction, likelihood of success, money, or the actual problems being solved?

As a basically useless anecdote... for random mucking around, I use whatever language sounds interesting. This has been Perl, Python, Forth, CL, Clojure, Ruby, and many others by now. (I used to consider myself a hacker, until I realized I wasn't working on any hard problems.)

But for real business, I'd choose something I know I can deliver with, which is pretty much Perl, C, or PHP for me. I've tried to extend this set by playing in Java and C# a few times, but the interest just isn't there. (Edit: I don't seem to have any problem delivering on boring problems in php, though.)

Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#56

Post by jdefarge »

Coda's opinions, even if leaked, were highly appreciated. This guy has invested a lot of time on Scala so it's in better position to say what he thinks about the language. In the end, it should help to fix imperfections and help the community.

Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#57

Post by randysavage25 »

I would like to see a time where JVM languages completely overshadow and remove Java from the scene, leaving only the VM itself as a requirement. It's a terribly depressing tool to use, and it's frustrating when I have to refer to it when using Scala or Clojure, particularly in I/O .

Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#58

Post by randysavage25 »

I would like to see a time where JVM languages completely overshadow and remove Java from the scene, leaving only the VM itself as a requirement. It's a terribly depressing tool to use, and it's frustrating when I have to refer to it when using Scala or Clojure, particularly in I/O .

Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#59

Post by chc »

socratic wrote: post #16
michaelochurch wrote: post #7

Here's why I, personally, prefer to put all my investment into languages like Scala and Clojure. Scala and Clojure, for their problems (which are not severe, but not to be ignored) have the advantage of being closer to the languages and approaches of the future, in which building comprehensible systems at very high levels of complexity/intellectual intricacy will be even more important relative to performance of exec…

Do people think the hiring and talent argument holds water? The more I hear this argument (e.g., from the "Python Paradox"), the less I buy it. Is the theory that true "hackers" care more about the programming language syntax and semantics than whether it has the right libraries for the subject domain of the startup? Is the theory that true "hackers" care more about whether the startup uses a new and un-tested progra…

I think the idea is that enthusiastic hackers are more likely to try new and "weird" things than, say, somebody who learned a language in school, got a job at some BigCo that happened to be using that language, and spends their days sticking that language's libraries together with bubblegum and Popsicle sticks.

You'll probably filter out some good candidates, but people who make it through at least stand out from the crowd in some positive way.

Re: The Rest of the Story (Yammer & Scala)

#60

Post by soc88 »

technomancy wrote: post #29
swah wrote: post #3

He wouldn't say that in public because it would be harmful to the Scala community, but everyone who read it is very glad for having read it. But if everyone thinks this way, those innovations will have one view on the web (where there is an image to care for) and another one of engineering departments, where people get real... and that sucks.

Obviously he took the time to write this post in such detail because he hopes that its intended recipients can take action to address the issues he raises. It's not like there isn't already plenty of Scala bashing going around these days anyway.

I think it is very constructive and I expect that improvements caused by it will land in trunk soon.
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