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Meta and Google are cutting staff

wsj.com

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Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#121

Post by piva00 »

bin_bash wrote: post #86
BoorishBears wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nowhere near the same as "stack ranking" in the way that the term generally used in the tech industry... I wouldn't want to work somewhere at FB scale that doesn't grade you on the curve of other engineers in your department and level, once your departments are large enough that's exactly how it should work. What's problematic is forcefully defining X percent as being low performing, the comparison to peers is…

They have a policy that XX% of engineers in a given department should* be given "Meets Most". If that's not stack ranking I'm not sure what would be. BTW "meets most" likely doesn't sound too bad to non-Metamates. Internally it's a pretty bad mark on your record. It doesn't directly relate to being fired but a ton of people quit when they receive it. I view it as sort of a "pre-PIP" state. (* Managers/directors will…

> "meets most" likely doesn't sound too bad to non-Metamates. Internally it's a pretty bad mark on your record.

The kind of newspeak I've heard from multiple friends and former coworkers that ended up at FB/Meta at some point. Well, the ones that didn't fall into the cult of Mark.

It might be because I'm getting older but this is the kind of stuff that makes me want to puke. The co-optation of language to exude an aura of friendliness is absolutely disgusting.

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#122

Post by Infinitesimus »

dafty4 wrote: post #14
tempsy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m speaking more to the stock price than Meta’s actions. Shares trading lower than they were 5 years ago. And many of the unprofitable growth companies down 80-90% in less than a year. Point is tech companies are highly sensitive to interest rates and now have to course correct in a world where the market is punishing excessive spending.

The stock price dive at Meta is pretty clearly due to the $10B hit from Apple’s Do Not Track Feature. Meta should make a free Android phone that allows tracking.

Oh but they did! Meta leadership has always anticipated this risk. The problem is that they have not been able to fully mitigate it.

Facebook Phone (rebranded HTC) was released in 2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_First but had poor sales.

The metaverse is their next play to build a world where they are a bit more shielded from Apple/Google/Microsoft's hardware influence. Pivoting a large business is really hard.

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#123

Post by nightpool »

Infinitesimus wrote: post #113
acchow wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They will refute at all cost that this is stack ranking Graded in the context of peers’ performance does not imply that they sort employees by performance.

What does sorting by performance look like to you? The curve determines rating and compensation, influences promotion decisions, projects people get to work on and what opportunities come their way. The seems like a sort to me given that budget and project opportunities are fixed in many places.

The key component of stack ranking / sorting by performance is that there's no absolute measure of your contribution, only a relative measure by which you have to outcompete everyone else in your team/department. If you fire your lowest 15% of engineers—no matter how good they are on an absolute level—that's a stack ranking system. It's a horrifying Red Queen's Race that punishes high-quality teams. I'm not necessarily saying that Meta's system is good, but at least it's not that.

EDIT: It sounds like at least some people are claiming that Meta has an internal policy that X% of your engineers under you are supposed to be given "Meets Most Expectations" ratings, which would also be pretty close to stack ranking (if at least allowing for some management leniency) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32930370

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#124

Post by bergenty »

znpy wrote: post #90
battery_glasses wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At Meta managers can't really get away with hiding low performers. Your performance review isn't finalized by your manager, but rather the manager submits your review to a calibrating board that tries to ensure fairness and maintain quality standards. They will refute at all cost that this is stack ranking but you are absolutely graded on the curve of the other engineers in your department and level.

I was contacted by meta just less than a month ago, and I declined the offer of an interview… I guess i dodged a bullet?

Yeah the good life bullet.

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#125

Post by vineyardmike »

game_the0ry wrote: post #15

I can't read WSJ while at work, but after checking on the financials for both Meta and Alphabet, I do not understand why either would be cutting staff. Both look pretty strong, so I am not sure how cuts are justified or why Zuckerberg has a negative outlook, especially since 2021 was such a great year for both. Do American executives, investors, and start up owners not have the guts for even a moderate stock price dr…

I can't speak formally for any of the companies, of course, but I suspect like another commenter said, its an opportunity to cut fat. Beyond that, the last two years saw many tech companies grow stupid-fast. For example, Snap hired more than 50% of their pre-layoff workforce since start of the pandemic. Google, Meta have both doubled headcount in a similar (slightly longer) time scale.

I suspect that despite being rich, headcount is expensive. If the median googler makes 300k, it probably costs Google 500k to employ. A team of 100 is $50M! A news article claimed google hired 10k people in Q2, so that'd be $5B in commitment (probably actually less, but on that scale). Doesn't take many quarters of that sort of growth to outpace income.

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#126

Post by purpleblue »

acchow wrote: post #102
battery_glasses wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At Meta managers can't really get away with hiding low performers. Your performance review isn't finalized by your manager, but rather the manager submits your review to a calibrating board that tries to ensure fairness and maintain quality standards. They will refute at all cost that this is stack ranking but you are absolutely graded on the curve of the other engineers in your department and level.

> They will refute at all cost that this is stack ranking Graded in the context of peers’ performance does not imply that they sort employees by performance.

If you are grading in the context of peers, it's absolutely a form of sorting. Think of it like a partition-exchange sort, where everything past a particular level is in one bucket and everything above that level is in another bucket.

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#127

Post by retinaros »

karmasimida wrote: post #45
jejeyyy77 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, being laid off sounds pretty good right about now. Paid vacation before going back into a hot job market for a full remote job.

> hot job market You'd be surprised :). Even Amazon isn't eating up engineers like it was a year ago. No, there is no hot job market, unless you want to take 30-40% pay cut.

amazon is still massively hiring because they already pip people and they have a 4year cliff where people leave willingly cauz they make less.

also frugality is already looped in amazon values so they wont overhire like google or meta

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#128

Post by duckmysick »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #48
theanarcrist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current theory on this, particularly for Google, is they're just taking advantage of the macroeconomic moment to cut some fat. Slowing growth or outright letting people go is a no-go in times of macroeconomic growth. Big companies, even if not strictly needed, can be opportunistic here and make some cuts they wouldn't be able to in other circumstances.

Yep. The hiring market has shifted from ultra-competitive during the COVID economic boom to being much tighter and more competitive during this economic downturn. You can't hire at Meta and Google scale without collecting some mis-hires and poor performers. When the hiring market is tight you might keep them on longer and try to mentor them up to par, but when the hiring market shifts and there are a lot of great can…

I'm confused. It was ultra-competitive before and now it's more competitive?

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#129

Post by loeg »

game_the0ry wrote: post #15

I can't read WSJ while at work, but after checking on the financials for both Meta and Alphabet, I do not understand why either would be cutting staff. Both look pretty strong, so I am not sure how cuts are justified or why Zuckerberg has a negative outlook, especially since 2021 was such a great year for both. Do American executives, investors, and start up owners not have the guts for even a moderate stock price dr…

Moderate stock price drop? Facebook is down 63%.

Re: Meta and Google are cutting staff

#130

Post by VHRanger »

whatshisface wrote: post #110
battery_glasses wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pay is near top and the engineers are talented. There are a lot of systems in place to get you to work near max capacity all the time with little slowdown time. There are lots of processes and political upheavals that make it hard to ship code. Some people love it.

That sounds like a place you'd go if you were using work to distract you from a problem in your personal life.

Or distract that you're writing code for a platform that harms people
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