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Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

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Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#201

Post by FeepingCreature »

MadcapJake wrote: post #170
FeepingCreature wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I wasn't asserting that they're literally getting Twitter to prevent him from making tweets. I just don't think they should even be attempting to set a rule like that. As you said, they're saying he's not welcome in "their community"; that's the part I think is toxic. A project is not a society. People don't live in Thunderbird. There's a widespread forum rule: "don't import drama." The idea behind it is when…

> There's a widespread forum rule: "don't import drama." The idea behind it is when you enter a certain forum, you may know people from elsewhere but you leave that context at the door and enter a new context with different rules. I think that ability to codeswitch into and out of social contexts is an important part of common civility, and overbroad declarations like this undermine it. That's literally what they are…

Let's be honest: if the post had said "don't continue this discussion with members on Twitter against their will, or we will escalate" I would have had a much more subdued reaction to it.

If that's what they meant, their word choices were very poor, because that is emphatically not what they said. What they said was "don't interact with anyone involved on any platform in any way."

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#202

Post by ensignavenger »

buscoquadnary wrote: post #191
ensignavenger wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No talking about people" is a bit too much in some cases though. For example, depending on how it is applied, it might forbid introducing new contributors or project leaders, because such posts are about 'people' and not code. Or, perhaps worse, if a major contributor fall on illness or other hard time, it would forbid the community from using official channels to rally to their support, because they can't talk abou…

Why should the community use official channels to rally for support? I am involved in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu there was recently an incident that happened where a notable BJJ figure was shot by another BJJ practitioner after an altercation in a bar. Several people felt that the gym of the shooter should provide a statement. I asked them why? What does it do to have an organization "make a statement". I feel the same way…

Because communities are made up of people. I wasn't so much thinking of organizations, but of the communities themselves. Many people who are involved in open source communities don't have any way to contact each other outside of the community.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#203

Post by Yoric »

Beltalowda wrote: post #180
Yoric wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's complicated. Brave was founded by Brendan Eich, long-time Mozilla developer, long-time Mozilla CTO, briefly Mozilla CEO. Brendan Eich also happened to be an anti-gay-marriage activist and donator (afaik, only his spare time, not at work) and California law says that if you donate more than [some sum of money], you must specify your employer. So, suddenly, a few days after Brendan Eich was nominated CEO, someone…

> Brendan Eich also happened to be an anti-gay-marriage activist and donator AFAIK he only donated some money in 2008; I can't find anything on him being an "activist"? And 2008 was the same year Obama said "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage." Although Obama did support it a few years later (2012). And the prop 8 he donated to was actually passed, so a majority of CA r…

> AFAIK he only donated some money in 2008; I can't find anything on him being an "activist"?

I may be misremembering that part.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#204

Post by E39M5S62 »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #148
flomo wrote: post #29

> Multi-line view like in Outlook, Lotus Notes and Postbox > Betterbird: Yes! > Thunderbird: No, requested since 2003 Wonderful! Back in the mid-2000s, this annoyed me enough to switch from Thunderbird to Outlook for work mail. Great to hear they had to fork the project to match the delicious UI of Lotus Notes. Honestly since then I haven't thought much about local PC mail clients to even consider any alternatives. A…

I mean but did I miss something or Thunderbird is open source? Like the author lists a bunch of functionalities that were requested for Thunderbird but weren't implemented, but they implemented in Betterbird, was it a bad thing to maybe create a pull request for Thunderbird to keep a single product? Or spotlight was the main objective?

Open source doesn't mean that the upstream project wants to / is obligated to merge any and all changes that appear in the wild.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#205

Post by hpd »

llanowarelves wrote: post #21

Does anyone know how to have a portable setup (all email IMAP preconfigured + settings) in either Thunderbird or Betterbird? So I can let Dropbox/something sync or symlink and hop between computers.

Have you tried portable thunderbird(from portableapps.com) ? My way of doing what you described has been to setup thunderbird on one machine and then sync it on the network through syncthing and am quite happy with this setup. Another option would be to change the default path where the profile is saved, but the portable variant is much more cleaner IMO.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#206

Post by lucideer »

folkrav wrote: post #189
lucideer wrote: post #70

A lot of debate in the comments here about whether they're comfortable supporting a project by a guy who's violated community terms. A few people asking what he was banned for but sofar I've seen no actual link to any context around the ban other than the select few emails he's published on his own website to defend his perspective (which seem quite light, as one would expect). The tone of this project is extremely o…

https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/moz-governance.pdf https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/permanent-ban.pdf https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.governance/c/RQHR3eFAYZ8 Links for the lazy.

and the only other link I could find (with nothing relevant in it that I can see): https://thunderbird.topicbox.com/search:from%3A(J%C3%B6rg%20...

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#207

Post by thrown_22 »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #64
rtpg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you propose as an alternative to people who just… constantly fill mailing lists with attacks on people or the like? Reasonable people don’t need to have such harsh actions applied of course. But reasonable people don’t end up getting to this point! I am a bit partial to messaging when someone is banned like this, but there are definitely cases where people will just keep on arguing about something forever…

It's more the idea of an organization claiming they have the authority to forbid you from tweeting at members . It's like they're trying to split the world into two halves, organization members and outsiders, draw a fence around the organization membership and assume control over who is allowed to cross that fence and how. To be clear: I don't think any organization should ever have that sort of power. If it was just…

>What would be the optimal Code of Conduct?

The one that doesn't exist.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#208

Post by thrown_22 »

Yoric wrote: post #49
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #42

While I don’t have insight into the ban of this particular member, I can’t fail to notice a growing list of people leaving Mozilla sometimes abruptly, without a lot of explanations and where relations with management seems to play a significant role. Graydon Hoare comes to mind. I also remember the interaction between the community and the fenix team feeling frankly tense if not hostile. Has something been happening…

Google invests at least one order of magnitude more money in Chrome than Mozilla can afford to invest in Firefox. Google has attracted many Firefox developers, both employees and external contributors. Chrome has reduced the browser share of Firefox to a few meager percent. All of this is bad for morale (and finances), it's as simple as that. Also, the failure of Firefox OS and Mozilla Connected Devices didn't help,…

Google is also something like 90% of revenue for Mozilla: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation

If you're working in Mozilla your main client is Google, not your users (who left 10 years ago).

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#209

Post by _yb2s »

kayson wrote: post #5

I really love Thunderbird; I've been using it for at least a decade now. There are definitely places where it still needs improvement, after years and years. While Betterbird seems exciting in theory, the attitude of the project leader (who it seems is a banned former contributor to Mozilla Thunderbird), and honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause. The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are…

The entire website is salty and angry... check out the comic on the front page and the features table among other things. The website is less of a legitimate project website, and more of a collection of vindictive rants against the Thunderbird project. I wouldn't trust this project with my e-mail or take it seriously with such an unprofessional and negative attitude.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#210

Post by hedora »

CJefferson wrote: post #132
FeepingCreature wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems deeply unreasonable, infantilizing and arrogant to me. Different preferences, maybe. It's the sort of thing I'd expect from a religion. > I've seen plenty of harassment which in principle insults code. It easy to say things like "Part X of the code base is a piece of * and should be deleted", or "Recent PR 1234 is awful" -- no-one's name is mentioned, but everyone knows who is in charge of X, or who wrote PR…

To me, there is a huge difference between "negative feedback" -- I don't think any project is saying you can't reply something like "This PR should not be merged, because there are significant problems. For example, line Q causes a memory leak, and lines A-B are so complicated I can't figure out if there is a buffer overflow or not". If you have examples where this kind of factual complaints are causing people to get…

> If you have examples where this kind of factual complaints are causing people to get banned, let me know.

From the email we are discussing:

> Using facts to excuse disrespectful language.In a number of conversations where you have been called out for communicating disrespectfully, you counter by stating what you said is a fact. While in many cases it is truly a fact, the way in which you convey these facts has not been appropriate. The CPG requires that if someone says they have been harmed through your words or actions, listen carefully, apologize sincerely, and correct the behavior going forward.

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