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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#331

Post by xalco »

Tenoke wrote: post #119
FooHentai wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with Carlsen on this. If you're caught or admit to cheating even once in a professional competitive career that's it - You should be out for good. That we have this bizarre attitude of permissiveness and time salvation around cheaters in competition is frankly bizarre. What other argument is there than to refuse to engage. It is not difficult to simply never cheat, in the same way that it is not difficult to simp…

The only confirmed cheating we know is online, in a no prize money setting at ages 12 and 16. This is hardly sufficent for banning him for life in FIDE OTB Tournaments as an adult if they don't have other evidence. It's like banning a sports player for life for cheating in high school games or an academic for cheating in their math test as a kid.

So... From now on, all teenagers between 12 and 16 should be allowed to cheat in online no prize money settings...

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#332

Post by Ma8ee »

swores wrote: post #266
Ma8ee wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that soccer player look? I don’t think we can build a machine that is good at soccer.

Once you remove the requirement that it look or act like a human, there's plenty of (pointless) ways you could make robots beat humans at football. A drone could pick up the ball and fly it into the goal without breaking the rules because the rules assume that to carry the ball it would need to touch your hands or arms (which the drone doesn't have). Build another robot that's the exact size of the goal, and too heav…

But then it wouldn't be soccer any more. Of course you could just build a high wall over the field so the opponents are physically prohibited to score. I'm quite sure that still is prohibited, even if you call the wall a player.

I don't think you need the players to look like humans, but you have to in some way keep the spirit of the game. For example, you can't pick up the ball and hold it while you move, but have to roll or bounce it in front of yourself (dribble).

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#333

Post by swores »

Ma8ee wrote: post #332
swores wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you remove the requirement that it look or act like a human, there's plenty of (pointless) ways you could make robots beat humans at football. A drone could pick up the ball and fly it into the goal without breaking the rules because the rules assume that to carry the ball it would need to touch your hands or arms (which the drone doesn't have). Build another robot that's the exact size of the goal, and too heav…

But then it wouldn't be soccer any more. Of course you could just build a high wall over the field so the opponents are physically prohibited to score. I'm quite sure that still is prohibited, even if you call the wall a player. I don't think you need the players to look like humans, but you have to in some way keep the spirit of the game. For example, you can't pick up the ball and hold it while you move, but have t…

That's my point, that for it to make sense they either need to be restricted to acting like humans or the rules of the game need to be updated to suit robots in which case it's not the same sport any more, even if the rules are changed to keep it as close to human football as possible as you suggest.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#334

Post by radiator »

bitcharmer wrote: post #317
radiator wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, I don't find it significant at all. I had not even heard of Dr. Regan. He seems to have achieved the IM Title decades ago, today he is probably simply a weak player. The best expert on opining whether Niemann has been cheating or not is the player who understands the game of chess more deeply than anyone else. He understands it from the human point of view (for example: which variations can a player…

> He seems to have achieved the IM Title decades ago, today he is probably simply a weak player. Wow. Regan has been an active and respected member of scientific community, a lecturer and book author for a long time. If anything that adds and not takes away from his credibility. He's also the most prominent expert on cheating detection that FIDE has ever worked with and he's an authority on the matter. Oh, and he's r…

I will quote you Fabiano Caruana, who said the following on September 22, after my previous comment:

“I would take Regan’s analysis with the large grain of salt, and the reason why is not because I have any insight into his algorithm or his methods, but because I know of a case of, a very high profile case, where with absolute certainty I can say that someone was cheating in an important event. And the person was investigated and was also exonerated based on Regan’s analysis. And I am certain that there was cheating. There is no doubt in my mind that this person was cheating and they got away with it.“

So this is one more example of an academic, who is so far away from reality and practice, that real experts just ignore his opinion.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#335

Post by radiator »

radiator wrote: post #334
bitcharmer wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He seems to have achieved the IM Title decades ago, today he is probably simply a weak player. Wow. Regan has been an active and respected member of scientific community, a lecturer and book author for a long time. If anything that adds and not takes away from his credibility. He's also the most prominent expert on cheating detection that FIDE has ever worked with and he's an authority on the matter. Oh, and he's r…

I will quote you Fabiano Caruana, who said the following on September 22, after my previous comment: “I would take Regan’s analysis with the large grain of salt, and the reason why is not because I have any insight into his algorithm or his methods, but because I know of a case of, a very high profile case, where with absolute certainty I can say that someone was cheating in an important event. And the person was inv…

Edit: Regan is rated 2372, he was born 1959 and his last tournament was in October 2012.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#336

Post by radiator »

Tenoke wrote: post #257
radiator wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed there is every reason. The hardest part is to understand the game of chess. As i wrote, it includes having the entire tree of variations for every position in your mind while investigating. It is absolutely not a matter of simply comparing one-dimensional engine evaluations.

No, the hardest part is likely to understand statistics, have data on cheaters and non-cheaters, analyze the differences, develop and test your methods on validation data, iterate on your process etc. >includes having the entire tree of variations for every position in your mind while investigating Too bad even Magnus can't do that and the closest you can get is by writing software to do it for you.

I do not even understand what it is that you think Carlsen cannot do. But every master can do it for one position at a time. Then he just analyses a number of positions, from Niemann's games and reaches a conclusion.

You did not describe the algorithm or the data which would help writing the software you are talking about. As I said, for me if this software would be based on comparing the engine's best move with the human's move and give such metrics as average centipawn loss, it would not be nearly adequate for this purpose.

And I insist that all the things you described as the hardest part are only poor substitutes for understanding the game of chess.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#337

Post by CydeWeys »

o_nate wrote: post #276
CydeWeys wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

Not being that familiar with the chess culture, it's weird to me that the distinction of "over the board" vs "online" seems to carry so much weight. Is it considered more acceptable to cheat online than "over the board"? I would think cheating is cheating.

Online ratings are meaningless. But your FIDE rating, which derives from playing actual classical chess in-person, means everything. Attaining a good FIDE rating is the difference between being able to make a living off the game and not. Online ratings are in fact so meaningless that eligibility for major online tournaments is based on your FIDE rating, not your online rating.

It's the difference between cheating at a casual Poker game at home with no money staked and cheating at the World Series of Poker when serious money is at stake.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#338

Post by smeagull »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #88
smeagull wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

What would you have wanted?

Normality tests of individual moves, rather than just game results.

Checks against every version of stockfish/other common engines for his moves in the games in question.

I would also expect an authorship test of the moves he made:

https://pureai.com/articles/2022/03/03/identifying-chess-pla...

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