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Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

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Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#181

Post by 867-5309 »

tomrod wrote: post #166
FeepingCreature wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what makes it horizontal for me is that you can't "go home and stop being a Thunderbird member". A "Thunderbird member" is something you are, rather than something you do. So this effectively asserts project ownership over the person. This is why I don't care what they do on project media like ML. That's a social space that's reserved for the project itself, so fair's fair. It's part of their slice, but "Twit…

> "go home and stop being a Thunderbird member" That's what being banned by an organization is. If it feels similar to a cult, it's because cults are organizations too (I say this as a former cult member from birth who was shunned for leaving). Regardless of the merits of the organization, there aren't other effective ways to guide acceptable behavior by its acolytes -- even criminal punishment by governments (organi…

>former cult member

attention acquired. please proceed

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#182

Post by generalizations »

alexiaa wrote: post #168
FeepingCreature wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fine with any judgment Mozilla make on infrastructure that they run and that belongs directly to the project, such as mailing lists, official chatrooms, etc. It's the addition of "unofficial" social platforms that irks me; it seems totalitarizing. Interaction of contributors outside the project ecosystem is none of their business. I prefer for society to be sliced "horizontally", rather than "vertically". I am n…

It very much depends on the situation. Sure, some harmless things you do outside work shouldn't have any effect on your work. But if we're talking about someone literally not believing that certain people (e.g. LGBT) should exist or have rights then I very much believe they can and should be shunned from everywhere regardless of whether they bring that bigotry to work or not. People have a right to not want to intera…

> It very much depends on the situation. Sure, some harmless things you do outside work shouldn't have any effect on your work. But...

Pragmatically speaking, you shouldn't expect that the only exceptions to these general rules of civilized interaction are ones you like or agree with.

> People have a right to not want to interact with others who make them uncomfortable. Imagine being forced to work...

a) No one is being forced to work with anyone else. b) If a specific someone might not want to interact with someone else, don't make that decision for them.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#183

Post by FeepingCreature »

alexiaa wrote: post #168
FeepingCreature wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fine with any judgment Mozilla make on infrastructure that they run and that belongs directly to the project, such as mailing lists, official chatrooms, etc. It's the addition of "unofficial" social platforms that irks me; it seems totalitarizing. Interaction of contributors outside the project ecosystem is none of their business. I prefer for society to be sliced "horizontally", rather than "vertically". I am n…

It very much depends on the situation. Sure, some harmless things you do outside work shouldn't have any effect on your work. But if we're talking about someone literally not believing that certain people (e.g. LGBT) should exist or have rights then I very much believe they can and should be shunned from everywhere regardless of whether they bring that bigotry to work or not. People have a right to not want to intera…

> being forced to work with someone who doesn't want you to exist

Yes. That is what I endorse.

Modulo "being forced to work"; I don't think anyone should be forced to work anyway, but that's not what this is about, it's about what's reasonable to expect. I think this is a reasonable thing to expect.

Nobody was going to chain people to the keyboard while Brendan Eich was loitering in the room, aggressively existing at them while they worked. The question is, if one person cannot work with another, who is being unreasonable? Who should be forced to yield? In other words, is there a right to not be made uncomfortable by somebody's mere belief, no matter how vile, that supersedes the expectation of workplace civility? I do not believe in such a right - conversely, I believe that there is a duty of tolerance in the workplace; tolerance as a behavior, not as a state of mind.

(Though, that said, I think Mozilla is far more symptom than cause.)

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#184

Post by dingdong123 »

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #147
gilrain wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He really did not. Why would I believe your guess instead of his actual statement?

because he actually did nothing about it until he was fully involved. i.e. until he was ~50 years old, when he stepped aside his words (Sun, 16 Sep 2018): This is my reality. I am not an emotionally empathetic kind of person and that probably doesn't come as a big surprise to anybody. Least of all me. The fact that I then misread people and don't realize (for years) how badly I've judged a situation and contributed t…

All this politewashing is extremely tiring

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#185

Post by dingdong123 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #171
dingdong123 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ignore them, or ban them from communities that you control. You don't try to expand your scope of influence and force other people to do so as well, leave that decision to them!

They’re not forcing anyone to do anything. The only power they have is to stop allowing him to use their community spaces.

You're right, they don't have the power. But they pretend they do. Read their code of conduct, it is actually insane.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#186

Post by q-big »

kayson wrote: post #5

I really love Thunderbird; I've been using it for at least a decade now. There are definitely places where it still needs improvement, after years and years. While Betterbird seems exciting in theory, the attitude of the project leader (who it seems is a banned former contributor to Mozilla Thunderbird), and honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause. The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are…

> The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are pretty concerning, [...] Then I saw this[1] recent email response which left yet another bad taste in my mouth.

To me, being German, these e-mails from Jörg Knobloch rather look like the directness that is often more common in Germany and German discussions. Keep in mind that Jörg Knobloch comes from this country (see http://jorgk.com/).

In this sense I consider this accusation rather to be a cultural misunderstanding if you are not used to this style of discussion.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#187

Post by ensignavenger »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #64
rtpg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you propose as an alternative to people who just… constantly fill mailing lists with attacks on people or the like? Reasonable people don’t need to have such harsh actions applied of course. But reasonable people don’t end up getting to this point! I am a bit partial to messaging when someone is banned like this, but there are definitely cases where people will just keep on arguing about something forever…

It's more the idea of an organization claiming they have the authority to forbid you from tweeting at members . It's like they're trying to split the world into two halves, organization members and outsiders, draw a fence around the organization membership and assume control over who is allowed to cross that fence and how. To be clear: I don't think any organization should ever have that sort of power. If it was just…

"No talking about people" is a bit too much in some cases though. For example, depending on how it is applied, it might forbid introducing new contributors or project leaders, because such posts are about 'people' and not code.

Or, perhaps worse, if a major contributor fall on illness or other hard time, it would forbid the community from using official channels to rally to their support, because they can't talk about people, only code.

I like the spirit behind it, but maybe it could be improved. Maybe "avoid" is a really important keyword, meaning it isn't banned, but generally should be avoided. Perhaps that could be better stated?

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#188

Post by jasonlotito »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #64
rtpg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you propose as an alternative to people who just… constantly fill mailing lists with attacks on people or the like? Reasonable people don’t need to have such harsh actions applied of course. But reasonable people don’t end up getting to this point! I am a bit partial to messaging when someone is banned like this, but there are definitely cases where people will just keep on arguing about something forever…

It's more the idea of an organization claiming they have the authority to forbid you from tweeting at members . It's like they're trying to split the world into two halves, organization members and outsiders, draw a fence around the organization membership and assume control over who is allowed to cross that fence and how. To be clear: I don't think any organization should ever have that sort of power. If it was just…

> It's more the idea of an organization claiming they have the authority to forbid you from tweeting at members.

Unless the members agreed to give them that authority.

Let me ask you this: are you a member of that community, or merely an outsider imposing your opinions on others that did not consent?

If the former, that's fine. If not, why do you feel it's fair to do to others what you think is wrong for them to do?

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#189

Post by folkrav »

lucideer wrote: post #70

A lot of debate in the comments here about whether they're comfortable supporting a project by a guy who's violated community terms. A few people asking what he was banned for but sofar I've seen no actual link to any context around the ban other than the select few emails he's published on his own website to defend his perspective (which seem quite light, as one would expect). The tone of this project is extremely o…

  https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/moz-governance.pdf
  https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/permanent-ban.pdf
  https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.governance/c/RQHR3eFAYZ8
Links for the lazy.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#190

Post by P5fRxh5kUvp2th »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #37
kayson wrote: post #5

I really love Thunderbird; I've been using it for at least a decade now. There are definitely places where it still needs improvement, after years and years. While Betterbird seems exciting in theory, the attitude of the project leader (who it seems is a banned former contributor to Mozilla Thunderbird), and honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause. The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are…

The email reprinted in that PDF makes me irrationally angry to read. I hope there's an ebuild for Betterbird soon, because after reading that I'm not sure I want anything to do with Thunderbird anymore. Quote: > * No interaction with any of the people involved. This includes > o No interactions with Thunderbird community members, paid contributors, and Thunderbird Council members. > o No interactions in any official…

This was the pushback against CoC's when they first started cropping up, but everyone pushing back was told they just want to abuse people.

There were a lot of well-meaning people on the other side of that discussion, but lets be clear that this is what they WANTED.

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